Dando killer wins right to appeal

[ViolentPanda]

You can think and presume what you like. But it simply didn't happen that way. If you weant to allow your prejudices get in the way of understanding what actually happened during this investigation then please don;t allow me to stop you. But you'll do fuck all to help address the very real isues which exist with our criminal justice system as it stands. It's dead easy to blame bent and inccompetent old bill. But whilst you are incorrectly doing so you are ignoring the real problems. Hardly seems like a sensible way to proceed ... but, hey, whatever floats your boat.

Have you ever caught an inkling of the irony of you trotting out this apologia over and over again?

 

[goldenecitrone]

And there is simply insufficient reliable evidence to decide one way or the other.

I thought you were innocent until proven guilty. What reliable evidence do you need to prove your innocence?

 

[marshall]

I think people make too much of the ‘execution-style’ nature of the killing, how it could only have been carried out by a seasoned pro. Like I keep reading about it being a Serbian hit in retaliation for that Serbian TV station being bombed or whatever…but if that was the case, why wouldn’t they claim it? Otherwise it’s a bit pointless, isn’t it?

So, think it could well have been George who just got ‘lucky’ in terms of making it look more professional that it was…

 

[Fruitloop]

I was under the impression that both the gun and the ammo had been modified. It's not that hard to modify a barrel if you have the right kit (and don't mind taking the risk that it will just blow up in your face), but modifying ammo is a pretty tricky business (if you want the ammo to still work, and to retain a complete head).

I think it was alleged at the time that he had firearms knowledge from a gun club and the TA, but in fact he had turned up to both only once and they'd told him to fuck off.

 

[nino_savatte]

I think people make too much of the ‘execution-style’ nature of the killing, how it could only have been carried out by a seasoned pro. Like I keep reading about it being a Serbian hit in retaliation for that Serbian TV station being bombed or whatever…but if that was the case, why wouldn’t they claim it? Otherwise it’s a bit pointless, isn’t it?

So, think it could well have been George who just got ‘lucky’ in terms of making it look more professional that it was…

I'm not sure that I buy the Serbian connection; it sounds a little too far fetched for my liking and besides, the "Serbian connection" was mentioned at a time when Serbia was on Britain's shitlist (any auld enemy will do). There is a possiblity that, if this was a professional hit, it could have been mistaken identity and Dando got the bullet instead of the intended victim.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

I almost always think you have to be in the room hearing all the evidence, looking at the accused and effectively doing it as your job to be able to form a meaningful view, but this one . . . nothing ever felt right about his conviction.

Me too. Also, a friend of my mum's (and I realise this is pure anecdotal stuff) knows someone who is a psychologist and interviewed him and said no way is he guilty.

I'm not one for conspiracies, but this case has never felt right.

 

[detective-boy]

Ah, I see, it's all about my "prejudices". When Barry George is cleared, you will have egg on your face and I'll be here to laugh at you.

You'd do almost anything to defend your former employers - wouldn't you? For you, any criticism of the police is done out of spite or prejudice. Never mind that Fulham Police Station may have got the wrong man or they rushed through this because the victim was a high profile TV presenter. None of that even occurs to you but, as far as you're concerned, the police can do no wrong.

Go wave your truncheon in someone else's face.

Go read my posts you prejudiced fuckwit. You clearly haven't got a fucking clue (a) what I have actually posted and (b) what you're talking about.

 

[detective-boy]

Have you ever caught an inkling of the irony of you trotting out this apologia over and over again?

And you.

It'll all be alright if we sack a few bent cops ...

NO. IT. FUCKING. WON'T.

This isn't about bent cops - its an enquiry done to contemporary standards as thoroughly and as properly as any other. And STILL we have what I have acknowledged from the outset (probably even before you ACAB twats woke up to the possibility)

SCREAMS OUT AS BEING AN UNSAFE CONVICTION

That big enough for you to see past the fucking planks in your eyes?

YOU'RE MISSING THE FUCKING POINT BY ABOUT 2000 FUCKING MILES ...

 

[detective-boy]

I thought you were innocent until proven guilty. What reliable evidence do you need to prove your innocence?

Who's saying anything about having to prove you're innocent?

YOU are talking about a trial process.

I am talking about knowing what happened - and it is perfectly possible for someone to be proved to be not involved (e.g. by CCTV or something confirming an alibi) even though it is equally sometimes the case that it cannot be proved.

What point are you trying to make?

 

[Meltingpot]

This has got unsafe conviction written all over it (as I have regularly said and posted before, ever since the first conviction).

But taking the above argument is absolutely meaningless. It's as muddle-headed as saying "He wouldn't have done it, he's a really nice guy and dead good with my old Mum's cat".

The murder appeared to be professional ... but there is nothing to say that it was what it appeared - a chaotic killer could have achieved the same outcome with a little luck and no planning. You simply cannot take what happened and say George didn't do it because he couldn't achieve the level of planning required.

That's a fair point.

 

[detective-boy]

That's a fair point.

You may think that, but I'm pretty sure nino_savatte and ViolentPanda would disagree ...

 

[nino_savatte]

Go read my posts you prejudiced fuckwit. You clearly haven't got a fucking clue (a) what I have actually posted and (b) what you're talking about.

"Prejudiced fuckwit"? My, you're really excelling yourself, flatfoot.

I wouldn't expect you to admit that George's conviction was fishy, you'd rather issue more apologies and offer more weak defences dressed up as "expert comment", all wrapped up in a patronising tone.

I'll bet you were a right laugh down at the station house.

 

[nino_savatte]

You may think that, but I'm pretty sure nino_savatte and ViolentPanda would disagree ...

Aw, shame...innit? We can't all think like you, you know. I wonder what you thought of the dodgy Colin Stagg conviction.

 

[detective-boy]

I wouldn't expect you to admit that George's conviction was fishy

Are you fucking stupid as well?

That is EXACTLY what I "admit". It's in size 7 font ^^^ for fuck's sake. Congratulations on proving to every independent observer exactly how prejudiced you really are.

 

[detective-boy]

I wonder what you thought of the dodgy Colin Stagg conviction.

You'll never find out. Because you wouldn't either (a) read what I posted or (b) believe it if you did.

So why don't you just tell me what I think?

 

[Azrael]

The man convicted of killing popular TV presenter Jill Dando in 1999 has won the the right to appeal against his sentence.

Without pre-judging the appeal, I note that this is yet another questionable conviction based on a majority jury verdict. (10-1 apparently, I wonder what happened to juror number twelve? Possible conspira-loon potential here.) As I've said many times before, such verdicts are the unseen civil liberties scandal.

George's conviction does sound dodgy, what with the apparent professionalism of the crime, but detective-boy makes a good point that the "professional" wound may be a fluke. I might moan about them, but I must admit I don't envy the appeal judges their job. (The same cannot be said about their salary. )

 

[nino_savatte]

You'll never find out. Because you wouldn't either (a) read what I posted or (b) believe it if you did.

So why don't you just tell me what I think?

I read what you posted and, in your characteristic arrogance, you sit here and claim that I haven't. If I hadn't read your post, do you honestly think that I would have answered as I did? On second thought, don;t answer that, your reply is likely to be just as patronising as all the others.

As far as you're concerned, your former employers are above reproach and the vast majority of threads where the police are being criticised, you always wade in with thematically similar excoriations.

Get off your high horse.

 

[nino_savatte]

Are you fucking stupid as well?

That is EXACTLY what I "admit". It's in size 7 font ^^^ for fuck's sake. Congratulations on proving to every independent observer exactly how prejudiced you really are.

"Prejudiced"? Fuck me, is that all you can come up with? That's a projection: I tend to find that prejudice is something that is commonplace with the police.

It's always 'our' "prejudices" that get in the way, but your clear attachment to your former occupation clouds your judgement. You can never be objective because of this attachment.

ETA: I've just looked at your post on the previous page but why did you feel the need to wade in with your truncheon? Because once a cop always a cop.

This is what I said

Originally Posted by nino_savatte
I think the police, once they got their hands on George, pulled out all the stops to have him convicted. If the victim had have been an ordinary person, the police would not have acted so quickly to find a suspect and then have him convicted. Because it was Jill Dando, the suspect had to be found quickly

So you're telling me that if the victim had have been an ordinary person and not a well known television personality, this case would have been closed as quickly? The police were under pressure to find the killer precisely because Dando was a celebrity. The media applied a great deal of pressure on the police to find the killer...or would you disagree with this? These are my observations. Now you can sit and call me all the names under the sun but it will not alter the fact that this case was expedited precisely because of the media's interest in it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

And you.

It'll all be alright if we sack a few bent cops ...

NO. IT. FUCKING. WON'T.

This isn't about bent cops - its an enquiry done to contemporary standards as thoroughly and as properly as any other. And STILL we have what I have acknowledged from the outset (probably even before you ACAB twats woke up to the possibility)

SCREAMS OUT AS BEING AN UNSAFE CONVICTION

That big enough for you to see past the fucking planks in your eyes?

YOU'RE MISSING THE FUCKING POINT BY ABOUT 2000 FUCKING MILES ...

1) If you can post ANYTHING AT ALL where I say "all coppers are bastards" I'll send a score to the server fund.

2) I don't recall ever mentioning that "it'll be alright if we sack a few bent cops", my usual take is better training, combined with a concerted ongoing attack on intitutional prejudices, not just in the police, but throughout the criminal justice system.

3) SHOUTING and swearing doesn't make your point more valid, it merely shows you up as being somewhat of a twat.

4) es, it's an unsafe conviction. WHY was it an unsafe conviction, why are ANY convictions "unsafe convictions"?

Grow up, you thin-skinned twit.

 

[London_Calling]

detective-boy has serious anger management issues and can't go beyond two posts in the same thread without starting personal attacks.

Best to just *ignore*, imo; no grief and easier to stay on the subject.

 

[detective-boy]

(10-1 apparently, I wonder what happened to juror number twelve? Possible conspira-loon potential here.)

It's actually not unusual for a trial of any length to "lose" a juror - reasons I have encountered personally include: illness; unexpected death in the family; business crisis (they were self-employed); knowledge of a witness (not realised until witness actually appeared); taint by something seen / heard out of court; misconduct and insufficient English to properly follow proceedings.

In any event, 11-1 would have been just as good as 10-2 ... so conspiraloonery has no real legs (not, I realise, that that usually makes any difference ...!)

 

[detective-boy]

Jill Dando was murdered on April 26 1999.

Barry George was arrested on May 25 2000.

Barry George was charged on May 29 2000.

That is NOT "closed quickly". You are living in a fucking fantasy world.

 

[detective-boy]

WHY was it an unsafe conviction, why are ANY convictions "unsafe convictions"?

Convictions may be unsafe for any number of reasons.

Some have been unsafe due to police malpractice or incompetence.

This one is unsafe for other reasons - the court have convicted on what is a lack of reliable evidence because of the way it has been dealt with in court by lawyers (defence and prosecution) and by the judge. It could be argued that it is unsafe because of our adversarial criminal court process which is a game to be "won" between the sides rather than a genuine and impartial search for the truth.

This is my point. There is no police malpractice or incompetence behind this. For you and nino-savatte to maintain that there is simply deflects attention from other, real reasons and ensures that they are not addressed. As such your prejudices make you part of the problem. Not part of the solution. You can ONLY see police malpractice and incompetence as being reasons for unsafe convictions. You are deluded.

 

[detective-boy]

detective-boy has serious anger management issues and can't go beyond two posts in the same thread without starting personal attacks.

Best to just *ignore*, imo; no grief and easier to stay on the subject.

detective-boy doesn't suffer fools gladly. Why should I?

And as for staying on the subject, I would be only too glad if the fuckwits would, instead of inventing imaginary police malpractice and incompetence to blame ...

 

[DexterTCN]

I have to say DB is getting painted wrongly here. His earlier posts on this thread, before the derail , were in agreement with the general feeling of discomfort regarding the original verdict.

I also think that the whole thing seemed like a (sorry DB) fit-up. An establishment one, not a police one.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Convictions may be unsafe for any number of reasons.

Some have been unsafe due to police malpractice or incompetence.

This one is unsafe for other reasons - the court have convicted on what is a lack of reliable evidence because of the way it has been dealt with in court by lawyers (defence and prosecution) and by the judge. It could be argued that it is unsafe because of our adversarial criminal court process which is a game to be "won" between the sides rather than a genuine and impartial search for the truth.

This is my point. There is no police malpractice or incompetence behind this. For you and nino-savatte to maintain that there is simply deflects attention from other, real reasons and ensures that they are not addressed. As such your prejudices make you part of the problem. Not part of the solution. You can ONLY see police malpractice and incompetence as being reasons for unsafe convictions. You are deluded.

It's a pity your perceptions don't match reality. I'd challenge you to prove your claim, but I note that you were unable or unwilling to take up my earlier challenge, and not man enough to apologise for spreading falsehood, or "talking shit" as the vernacular has it.

How very typical of you.

 

[nino_savatte]

detective-boy doesn't suffer fools gladly. Why should I?
.

I don't either and you've been called on this one.

 

[nino_savatte]

Jill Dando was murdered on April 26 1999.

Barry George was arrested on May 25 2000.

Barry George was charged on May 29 2000.

That is NOT "closed quickly". You are living in a fucking fantasy world.

George was identified as a suspect long before his arrest, so your narrative means little. You're living in the fantasy world, pal.

I wonder what you must have been like when you were in the force. I'll bet you were a right bastard.

 

[detective-boy]

I also think that the whole thing seemed like a (sorry DB) fit-up. An establishment one, not a police one.

That is the point I am trying to expand on. It might appear that it is some form establishment fit-up ... but, when you know the story in detail (at the time I was a DCI on the same part of the Serious Crime Directorate who investigated the murder (not Fulham Police Station as some would have you believe) and on numerous occasions the evidence was discussed between SIOs as was recognised good practice with any difficult case) it really is not.

It is something which has happened despite every aspect of the system working pretty much as it is intended top, with things being done to contemporary standards and in accordance with contemporary best practice.

If it is unsafe then I believe it is a far, far more worrying case than those where police malpractice and / or incompetence or other establishment shennanigans can be blamed. The feeble-minded such as nino-savatte and ViolentPanda who instantly revert to knee-jerk, police fit-up mode obscure this far more important issue. THAT is what frustrates and annoys me about their approach.

 

[detective-boy]

I don't either and you've been called on this one.

Oh fuck off with your pathetic playground games ...