Cyclist killed in Hackney

[Crispy]

I'm not sure it is a "fact of life" - I see far too many cyclists who do not ride at all defensively and who, through ignorance or impatience, put themselves in extremely dangerous situations (e.g. squeezing up the inside of lorries stationary at traffic lights, risking the lights changing and the lorry moving off whilst they are in the danger zone).

I would not say that cyclists should have to ride in such a manner as to make up for the inadequacies of other road users (any more than I believe motorcyclists should) but there is definitely scope for some to improve their defensive riding strategies, the most important of which is looking and thinking ahead (in time and space) and predicting potential danger before it arises.

I agree. Bear in mind that I'm not talking about the incident in the OP - we have no idea of the circumstances there. But I see lots of stupid riding out there. I started riding a bike in the city after I'd learnt to drive. But some people go right out onto the roads with no road-sense at all - and that's a very dangerous thing.

 

[lighterthief]

I'm not sure it is a "fact of life" - I see far too many cyclists who do not ride at all defensively and who, through ignorance or impatience, put themselves in extremely dangerous situations (e.g. squeezing up the inside of lorries stationary at traffic lights, risking the lights changing and the lorry moving off whilst they are in the danger zone).

I would not say that cyclists should have to ride in such a manner as to make up for the inadequacies of other road users (any more than I believe motorcyclists should) but there is definitely scope for some to improve their defensive riding strategies, the most important of which is looking and thinking ahead (in time and space) and predicting potential danger before it arises.

I agree. I'm not blinkered on this issue and won't rush to defend all cyclists, some of whom ride with what can only be described as a deathwish. In this case, however (based on what I've heard reported) it seems the cyclist was not at fault. And that's the trouble, really - no matter how well and defensively you cycle all it takes is some numpty in a vehicle to not think just for a second and you're dead.

 

[TopCat]

Hope the driver gets at least 20 years, murdering twat!

sorry, where has murder happened here?

 

[Kanda]

I see far too many cyclists who do not ride at all defensively and who, through ignorance or impatience, put themselves in extremely dangerous situations (e.g. squeezing up the inside of lorries stationary at traffic lights, risking the lights changing and the lorry moving off whilst they are in the danger zone).

I would not say that cyclists should have to ride in such a manner as to make up for the inadequacies of other road users (any more than I believe motorcyclists should) but there is definitely scope for some to improve their defensive riding strategies, the most important of which is looking and thinking ahead (in time and space) and predicting potential danger before it arises.

Completely agree here. Having driven for years and then switching to cycling this is all to evident, a LOT of the cyclists I see are absolute nutters. Sure drivers can be mad but I see far far too many cyclists taking unneccessary risks against vehicles that could swat them like flies.

You have to plan ahead, have an alternative, don't put yourself in tight spots trying to gain that yard or two.

I'm not the most experienced cyclist in London and god I hope I never end up in an accident like above but I will not take risks to chop 2 mins off my journey.

 

[TopCat]

the murdering bastard will probably get 6 months prison and 2 year ban.

lorries - i think that's the most common form of death for cyclists. i saw something similar around 3 or 4 years ago in tooting common. there was another death-by-lorry incident in clapham junction last year or the year before.

i just take extra care and slow right down when i see the fuckin; things, and often let them go in front. sure i'll lose time but it's only an extra 30 seconds.

Murdering bastard? Evidence?

 

[Skim]

If you can segregate the bikes from the pedestrains fine. My opinion is shared pedestrian/cycle paths don't work - you only have to try walking along a canal path to see that.

But a canal path is far too narrow for conversion. I was thinking more of wide pavements that aren't filled by pedestrians, not pavements where the sharing of space would mean a squeeze. For example, there's a stretch from Vauxhall into Battersea's Queenstown Road where the pavement has been given some space for cyclists. It makes sense because it's not an area where you see many pedestrians at all.

The space for pedestrians and cyclists on these sorts of routes could be well-defined so that cyclists don't mow down pedestrians on their half. It would require both pedestrians and cyclists to be respectful of each other's space, of course, but it's far more preferable to have cyclists in a safer space.

 

[Biddlybee]

It would have to be an enclosed area, in Putney they have cycle lanes on the pavement, but because it's just marked on, people just wonder on to them. But if there was something to separate it (like a kerb on both sides, for example) perhaps (but not necessarily) ppl would take more notice.

In Islington there's a tiny bit of road where the cycle lane is actually separate from the road and the pavement, and that would be ideal, but I can't see the gvmt investing on this, even though it wouldn't cost that much to raise kerbs on the road, between the main rd and pavement.

There's a little stretch in Vauxhall, and it's a different colour - seems to work well - it is a very wide pavement though.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Isn't there a stretch in Croydon that's like that for about five feet?

 

[Kanda]

You mean the Vauxhall cycle path with the lamposts and signposts in the cycle path?

 

[Biddlybee]

You mean the Vauxhall cycle path with the lamposts and signposts in the cycle path?

Yep that's the one

 

[Hollis]

Yeah - that's what I'm saying - there has to be enough space for a seperate cycle path - mixed cycle/pedestrian paths don't work - i.e. canal paths

 

[Skim]

Yeah - that's what I'm saying - there has to be enough space for a seperate cycle path - mixed cycle/pedestrian paths don't work - i.e. canal paths

Ideally you want some kind of barrier...

 

[TopCat]

Germany has many pavement protected cycle lanes, they built them after we bombed them flat in WW2. We in london don't have the space for proper cycle lanes, plus roads plus pavements.

I like the concept of night time deliverys only, shame that lorry drivers will never spend decent time with their families as a result. It's an awful job, low pay, high stress, low expectation of living much past retirment age, and all for bringing foccicia to you just in time.

 

[lighterthief]

I like the concept of night time deliverys only, shame that lorry drivers will never spend decent time with their families as a result. It's an awful job, low pay, high stress, low expectation of living much past retirment age, and all for bringing foccicia to you just in time.

I do view it as part of a wider problem. We've become conditioned to demand convenience and choice at low prices for many types of goods, whilst ignoring the environmental consequences.

 

[TopCat]

Exactly, and we won't do anything meaningful about it as no electorate will ever vote in a political party that promises lower growth.

 

[editor]

You mean the Vauxhall cycle path with the lamposts and signposts in the cycle path?

The one they've made by Waterloo is awful: really dangerous and confusing.

 

[Crispy]

Doesn't it go right in front of some bus stops as well? Or is that another fantastic facility I've seen? Time to get that website out, I think

 

[lighterthief]

...no electorate will ever vote in a political party that promises lower growth.

Or higher prices

 

[Donna Ferentes]

If it goes past the station (on the station side) and up to the roundabout it's bound to go in front of the bus stops, I'd have thought.

 

[Crispy]

If it goes past the station (on the station side) and up to the roundabout it's bound to go in front of the bus stops, I'd have thought.

Yes, but on the pavement, directly next to the bus stop structure itself, seperated only by a white line of paint? That'll keep people out of it - it's be safer to cycle in the road

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

It would greatly help if quieter, slower electric vehicles were also introduced for inner city haulage but there's no chance of that happening any time soon...

no it wouldn't i predicta remarked rise in bicycle accidents once cars become quiter and electric as there has been ever since cars have become relitively quiter over the last few years...

people ascocate noise with the vehciles sadly they often rely on the noise than using their eyes quiter cars or lorries will result in more accidents...

However, if they were only run at night like some kind of frieght haulage milk floats with real power then i see no reason why this wouldn't work ...

 

[Cobbles]

It's not just lorries that kill cyclists, but cars also. Do we ban them from the roads at certain times as well?

To be accurate, it wasn't the lorry that killed, it was the driver's negligence.

 

[robotsimon]

I've always held the opinion that cycle lanes following the route of roads are unhelpful in as much as they reinforce the idea that bicycles are not part of the traffic - the road is for motor vehicles only. A cyclist has more of a right to be on the road than cars or lorries which do not, in fact, have any right to be there at all.

The recent scandalous case where a judge fined a cyclist for holding up the traffic as he was not using the (unsuitable) cycle path nearby sets a worrying and dangerous precedent which could see any cyclist being involved in an accident on the road when there is a cycle path nearby to be at fault.

However, reading about things like the awful accident at the start of this thread makes me wonder if I'm wrong . . . . .

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

No. You were missing the point, which was that there's only one such night-time occurrence where I am, and yet it's destructive to sleep. This suggests to me that it was be extremely disturbing for anybody who had to put up with rumble and clatter all night. Any given occurrence might be less: come to that it might be more, since there's many delivery vehicles much bigger than the local binmen have got.

not really you have different tollerences to nosie dependant on backgorund noise you zone it out if it's there all the time like living next to a busy road you tend not to hear the traffic noise after a while this as compared to a sleepy village in the faroe isles will of course be tremndiously loud... but you'll still learn to filter it out...

 

[Skim]

To be accurate, it wasn't the lorry that killed, it was the driver's negligence.

Well yeah, I think the driver's negligence is pretty obvious – of course vehicles alone don't kill cyclists.

 

[nino_savatte]

Absolutely. Morning Lane is a designated cycle route, part of the LCN+ network. There are cycle logos on the road but no delineated cycle lane.

Even if cycle lanes are delineated, many motorists ignore them.

Many motorists also seem to feel that the advance cycle box at road junctions exist solely for their use. They look really confused when I look at them and say "That's a nice bike you have there". Cunts!

 

[Donna Ferentes]

not really you have different tollerences to nosie dependant on backgorund noise you zone it out if it's there all the time like living next to a busy road you tend not to hear the traffic noise after a while this as compared to a sleepy village in the faroe isles will of course be tremndiously loud... but you'll still learn to filter it out...

Well, this CAN be true. Before I lived in Brixton I lived in Acton, in a room backing onto the railway line coming out of Paddington, and after a couple of months I was able to sleep through the night even with the window open. On the other hand, I don't find it possible to sleep through the binmen here, even after six months.

 

[TopCat]

To be accurate, it wasn't the lorry that killed, it was the driver's negligence.

Evidence for this? The cyclist may have been pissed for all we know? Talk about biased shite, don't ever serve on a jury eh?

 

[Hollis]

no it wouldn't i predicta remarked rise in bicycle accidents once cars become quiter and electric as there has been ever since cars have become relitively quiter over the last few years...

people ascocate noise with the vehciles sadly they often rely on the noise than using their eyes quiter cars or lorries will result in more accidents...

...

Is there any actual evidence for this theory - I can see it could be true in some instances.. - but take for example Holloway Road/Green Lanes etc.. there's so much noise and traffic anyway that I can't see how doubling the overall noise of vehicles (say), is going to make it any safer..

 

[TopCat]

Well yeah, I think the driver's negligence is pretty obvious – of course vehicles alone don't kill cyclists.

Fucking obvious? How? Where? Were you there? FFS!