cyclist death HGV driver sentenced

[editor]

I agree, they're probably both to blame ...

How's a cyclist who is pulled up at traffic lights for 37 seconds to 'blame' for being killed by a driver not looking where he was going because he was busy rummaging around for papers in his cab rather than paying fucking attention?

 

[Termite Man]

How's a cyclist who is pulled up at traffic lights for 37 seconds to 'blame' for being killed by a driver not looking where he was going because he was busy rummaging around for papers in his cab rather than paying fucking attention?

because it's not safe to pull up on the left hand side of a large vehicle . You can't assume everyone is doing as they should and you are responsible for your safety .In this case the girl put herself in a position where an accident could happen so she must take part of the blame ( although a significant proportion of that blame belongs to the HGV driver .
When I cycle I will not pull up on the left hand side of stationary traffic and if it's at all possible I will try and overtake on the right as much as possible because that is safer to do .

 

[editor]

because it's not safe to pull up on the left hand side of a large vehicle . You can't assume everyone is doing as they should and you are responsible for your safety .In this case the girl put herself in a position where an accident could happen so she must take part of the blame ( although a significant proportion of that blame belongs to the HGV driver .
When I cycle I will not pull up on the left hand side of stationary traffic and if it's at all possible I will try and overtake on the right as much as possible because that is safer to do .

The lights were red. The HGV was stationary. She pulled up alongside and was stationary for 37 seconds besides the lorry.

The only reason that she died was because the driver failed to obey the Highway Code and was not paying due care and attention. If he had looked before turning left instead of fucking about in his cab looking for papers she would still be alive.

It is up to cyclists to cycle responsibly (which she did) and it is up to drivers to look out for cyclists (which he failed to do).

46: Take extra care at junctions. You should
watch out for cyclists, motorcyclists and pedestrians as they are not always easy to see...

Turning left

158: Use your mirrors and give a left-turn signal well before you turn left. Do not overtake just before you turn left and watch out for traffic coming up on your left before you make the turn, especially if driving a large vehicle. Cyclists and motorcyclists in particular may be hidden from your view.

 

[Dr_Herbz]

How's a cyclist who is pulled up at traffic lights for 37 seconds to 'blame' for being killed by a driver not looking where he was going because he was busy rummaging around for papers in his cab rather than paying fucking attention?

Because any cyclist who pulls inside an HGV at a set of lights is putting themself in obvious and imminent danger.
Why should the onus fall upon the HGV driver to check whether or not a cyclist has been stupid enough to try to make an extra lane inside his vehicle?

 

[nino_savatte]

Actually, with cycle lanes cyclists have to wrry about....

Cycle lanes that end abruptly and dump you into fast moving traffic.

Broken glass and crap in cycle lanes, often not swept as well as the pavement.

Drivers who completely ignore signals that you make from the cycle lane or cycle lanes that are partially hidden from the main stream of traffic so the drivers can't see the signals you make.

Low signposts over the cycle lane (my most painful cycling accident ever).

Pedestrians wandering up cycle lanes with their backs turned to you.

Cars parked in cycle lanes.

Absolutely ridiculous cycle lanes like the one that used to be between the bus lane and the traffic on Blackfriars bridge and was only changed after several deaths.

Anyone got any others?

Overhanging tree branches that would be pruned if they obstructed the road and posed a danger to motorists. Check out the Great West Road, there's loads of them.

 

[Termite Man]

It is up to cyclists to cycle responsibly (which she did) and it is up to drivers to look out for cyclists (which he failed to do).

Well call me over cautious but I don't think assuming someone will see you is cycling responsible . Pulling up on the left of large vehicle at lights is probably the first thing I'd tell a new cyclist not to do and IMO people that do it are putting their lives at risk . I know it shouldn't be like that but it is so you need to be sensible at lights . The simple fact is this girl is dead because even though her road position was perfectly legal it didn't provide any protection from someone not paying attention . The HGV driver is to blame for not paying attention but the girl is to blame for what I consider to be extremely bad road positioning !

 

[Dr_Herbz]

The only reason that she died was because the driver failed to obey the Highway Code and was not paying due care and attention. If he had looked before turning left instead of fucking about in his cab looking for papers she would still be alive.

It is up to cyclists to cycle responsibly (which she did) and it is up to drivers to look out for cyclists (which he failed to do).

No, the only reason she died was because she cycled into an imaginary lane inside the HGV, one that didn't exist.
I fail to see how this is riding responsibly, perhaps you'd care to explain?

 

[Calva dosser]

I've got to say, pulling up on the inside of an HGV was a no no for me, even when pissed.

It's instinctual. You just see yourself being wrapped around the back axle.

The driver is on the other side.

I used to sneak in front, and if the indicators weren't on, point ahead, to ascertain the drivers true intentions in certain circumstances.

If he gave me lip, then I PK'd* his headlights with a 'd' lock

* for younger posters Panda Killer was a poster famous for dishing out summary justice to errant vehicle drivers.

A sort of Judge Dread on a Clawed Buttocks 12 speed.

 

[editor]

I've got to say, pulling up on the inside of an HGV was a no no for me, even when pissed.

I'd say the risk very much depends on how much space there is next to the lorry, the weather, lighting and a host of other factors.

But it is still the driver's responsibility to check his mirrors before turning left and not be flapping papers around in his cab instead of looking out for other road users.

After all, he's in charge of several tons of dangerous machinery.

 

[twistedAM]

Don't be obtuse. The HC is pretty clear.

You, as the driver, are expected to give way to more vulnerable road-users.

As a cyclist, the section quoted is clear. You are advised to be careful around vehicles at junctions.

What? I'm ahead of the cyclist and signalling and indeed starting to turn left and they just accelerate and whizz through?
I don't think that's according to the HC.
Anyway to add insult to idiocy he was without lights and it was well dusky.

 

[editor]

No, the only reason she died was because she cycled into an imaginary lane inside the HGV, one that didn't exist.
I fail to see how this is riding responsibly, perhaps you'd care to explain?

Right. So cyclists should just get off the road if there's not a lane provided for them, yes? Or maybe they should sit in the middle of the road like a car seeing as you seem to think they have no right to occupy an area to the right of the kerb?

 

[editor]

The HGV driver is to blame for not paying attention but the girl is to blame for what I consider to be extremely bad road positioning !

Her 'positioning' was totally legal, therefore she is not to blame. The fucking idiot pissing about with papers in his cab instead of looking at the road is.

 

[Termite Man]

Her 'positioning' was totally legal, therefore she is not to blame. The fucking idiot pissing about with papers in his cab instead of looking at the road is.

I acknowledged that , but legal or not I still think it's damn stupid to put yourself in a dangerous position . The fact that where she was is legal didn't save her did it , if she had waited behind the HGV she would still be alive . An interesting thing not mentioned in the article is whether the HGV driver was indicating to turn left when this girl pulled up beside him .

Also since you want to quote the HC then perhaps this part about when you shouldn't overtake will help

DO NOT overtake where you might come into conflict with other road users. For example


* where traffic is queuing at junctions or road works

139: Overtake only when it is safe to do so. You should


* only overtake on the left if the vehicle in front is signalling to turn right, and there is room to do so

 

[Gromit]

Her 'positioning' was totally legal, therefore she is not to blame. The fucking idiot pissing about with papers in his cab instead of looking at the road is.

Sometimes its better to err on the side of caution whether you'd be in the right or not.

When I drive I always assume that everyone else on the road is a complete frigging idiot and could do the wrong thing at any time. Many times I have been glad that I made that assumption. If I was on a bike I'd been even more cautious of other road users as they are even stupider when it comes to bikes.

Its all very well her being in the right being where she was but it doesn't bring her back

 

[Termite Man]

I've just thought , if this girl was next to the HGV for 37 seconds then I think it's safe to assume that she was next to the cab of the HGV or slightly forward of it , now I'd assume that the mirrors on an HGV would be angled so they can see behind the vehicle not just below them .
The rummaging with papers would have meant he wouldn't have seen her riding down his left hand side but if he checked his mirrors just before pulling off would he still have seen her . Perhaps someone with HGV driving experience would be able to confirm what the field of vision in the left hand mirror actually is !

 

[Dr_Herbz]

Right. So cyclists should just get off the road if there's not a lane provided for them, yes? Or maybe they should sit in the middle of the road like a car seeing as you seem to think they have no right to occupy an area to the right of the kerb?

Cyclists should stop behind whatever is stopped in front of them.
Is there some rule in the highway code that states cyclists should make up their own imaginary lanes?

 

[Herbsman.]

Whether you're in the wrong or in the right, it all means nothing if you're dead.

 

[maomao]

Cyclists should stop behind whatever is stopped in front of them.
Is there some rule in the highway code that states cyclists should make up their own imaginary lanes?

Pushbikes and motorbikes are clearly allowed to filter in stationary traffic (which this was). This does not involve the creation of 'imaginary lanes'. Your argument is spurious. It is however a point misundertood by a lot of motorists who seem to take offense at being filtered past on the left when they're not moving. Given that in the highway code two wheeled vehicles are clearly allowed to filter in stationary traffic I've always interpreted this as sheer jealousy.

 

[weepiper]

Right. So cyclists should just get off the road if there's not a lane provided for them, yes? Or maybe they should sit in the middle of the road like a car seeing as you seem to think they have no right to occupy an area to the right of the kerb?

Yes, this is exactly what I would do in this situation. If you take up the same space as a car then drivers will give you the same amount of space as they would give a car rather than trying to shove past you in places where there really isn't room. And she should not have gone up the left of a large vehicle waiting at lights unless she was then going to go right out in the middle of the lane in front and make eye contact with the driver.

 

[Dr_Herbz]

Yes, this is exactly what I would do in this situation. If you take up the same space as a car then drivers will give you the same amount of space as they would give a car rather than trying to shove past you in places where there really isn't room. And she should not have gone up the left of a large vehicle waiting at lights unless she was then going to go right out in the middle of the lane in front and make eye contact with the driver.

That was one of the first things my riding instructor taught me "Always make eye contact with the drivers of other vehicles because until and unless you make eye contact, you must assume that they haven't seen you."...

Road junctions

58: Pay particular attention to long vehicles which need a lot of room to manoeuvre at corners. They may have to move over to the right before turning left. Wait until they have completed the manoeuvre because the rear wheels come very close to the kerb while turning. Do not be tempted to ride in the space between them and the kerb.

A strong case for compulsory training/testing methinks because it seems some cyclists think this is a perfectly acceptable maneuver

 

[moose]

Perhaps someone with HGV driving experience would be able to confirm what the field of vision in the left hand mirror actually is !

If they're below the mirrors or in front of them, you can't see people on bikes close to the vehicle, and she must have been pretty close to go under the back wheels.

I don't think a cement mixer really only weighs 2 tonnes

edit: According to my resident truck expert, new cement mixers come with a warning sign to cyclists not to come alongside, as they have particular issues with blindspots, and the rear wheels cut in across corners as you turn.

And here's an article about the problem.

 

[detective-boy]

The only reason that she died was because the driver failed to obey the Highway Code and was not paying due care and attention.

Not according to the investigation and the prosecution it wasn't.

If she stopped alongside a stationary lorry, she had put herself into a massively dangerous situation. Fact.

If she moved off in parallel to the lorry, remaining alongside it, she put herslef into an even more massivley dangerous situation. Fact.

She MAY even have been in (and by moving in parallel, remained in, a complete blind spot for the driver.

I'm sorry. It is tragic. BUt if t is as it appears to have been from what we know, she has to share the blame. Just because she was on a pedal cycle does not make her some sort of angel, incapable of error or carelessness.

 

[detective-boy]

The fucking idiot pissing about with papers in his cab instead of looking at the road is.

You keep saying that. I have seen nothing to suggest he was doing that whilst moving - he was doing it whilst stationary, which is a very different thing.

And yes:

Or maybe they should sit in the middle of the road like a car

That is defensive, assertive riding. Cyclists should NOT be in the gutter - as I said earlier, somewhere between a third and half way across the traffic lane is probably safest in most urban situations.

 

[Termite Man]

edit: According to my resident truck expert, new cement mixers come with a warning sign to cyclists not to come alongside, as they have particular issues with blindspots, and the rear wheels cut in across corners as you turn.

And here's an article about the problem.

So cement mixers have problems with blind spots , it's nice to see at least one company doing something to remedy the situation though !

 

[detective-boy]

A strong case for compulsory training/testing methinks because it seems some cyclists think this is a perfectly acceptable maneuver

I think that is probably cloud cuckoo land though I agree it would be sensible.

As an immediate step, maybe the GLA or one of the cyclist groups would think it useful to distribute flyers to cyclists, on parked cycles, to purchasers of new cycles, with this simple life-saving advice on ... maybe even something U75 could do, the number of cyclists on here (I'd donate/help) ... you'd get loads of support (Evening Standard / Andrew Gilligan / Boris Johnson ...)

Let's do it!

 

[Termite Man]

I think that is probably cloud cuckoo land though I agree it would be sensible.

As an immediate step, maybe the GLA or one of the cyclist groups would think it useful to distribute flyers to cyclists, on parked cycles, to purchasers of new cycles, with this simple life-saving advice on ... maybe even something U75 could do, the number of cyclists on here (I'd donate/help) ... you'd get loads of support (Evening Standard / Andrew Gilligan / Boris Johnson ...)

Let's do it!

Sounds like a good idea , I'd distribute a few leaflets onto parked bikes if they were available !

 

[stuckin72]

How's a cyclist who is pulled up at traffic lights for 37 seconds to 'blame' for being killed by a driver not looking where he was going because he was busy rummaging around for papers in his cab rather than paying fucking attention?

Because the cyclist is dead not the lorry driver, I drive a 44tonne truck, occasionally in London, all you have to see down your left hand side is a small mirror fixed to the top of the LH door & facing downwards, yes ok, ideally the truck driver should be concentrating fully at all times(despite having to work a 13hr day & start work at 4am)but occasionally errors are made & truck vs bike = dead cyclist not dead lorry driver at all times. if you cycle in heavy traffic, fuck the highway code, the onus is on you the cyclist to keep yourself alive, why? because it is you the cyclist who dies, every time. the penalty meted out to the driver is irrelavent as far as the cyclist is concerned, because the cyclist is dead.

 

[moose]

All road users should obey a simple rule - if you can't see a truck's mirrors, whilst looking straght ahead of you, then the driver probably can't see you.

 

[nino_savatte]

I never overtake large vehicles on the LHS. It's just too dangerous. However, the feeder lanes that lead up to the advance stop boxes are often blocked by unthinking, selfish and inconsiderate motorists.

 

[Termite Man]

I never overtake large vehicles on the LHS. It's just too dangerous. However, the feeder lanes that lead up to the advance stop boxes are often blocked by unthinking, selfish and inconsiderate motorists.

I don't use the feeder lanes if it means driving on the LHS of a large vehicle either . They may be there for a purpose but that won't stop me getting crushed !