Cycling: Promotion of a dangerous activity?

[Sigmund Fraud]

but as the road system (excluding motorways) carries more than 7 times as much motor traffic, the concern that cycling has become more dangerous because there is so much more traffic is not born out

your CTC quote teuchter - thats a 7 fold increase in motor traffic, not the accident ratio between cycles and cars - in fact if you read the quote properly...

in 1950 one cyclist died for every 25 million kilometres travelled (8.1 Road accidents and casualties: 1950-2004). In 2005 the figure was one for every 30 million kilometres

so risk has decreased as total mileage by bike has increased - which kind of shits on your point.

 

[Biddlybee]

Pedestrians aren't generally on the road amidst traffic, and travel at a lower velocity.

They are in SE and SW London

 

[lintin]

need the right infrastructure - the cycle lanes are a complete dogs dinner.

also secure parking...that might tempt you to invest in a better and safer bike....

then you wouldn't need to spend a fortune to advertising agencies 'promoting' it and to management consultants --- get the basics right and it will happen.

 

[Biddlybee]

I don't like this overemphasis on safety that seems to have become prevalent ... it just seems strange that it doesn't get applied to cycling too.

It does... there have been campaigns about bike safety... Lambeth Transport did one recently about safe bike positioning on the roads.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

They are in SE and SW London

Innit and North London, Central London and just about every fucking where it seems doing some stupid things too while crossing the road.

 

[Orang Utan]

.
And now bus drivers aren't allowed to open the doors between stops even if you're stuck in a stationary traffic jam, in case you get run over by a hypothetical car driving along a non-existent lane between the bus and the pavement.

Surely that's nonsense? It would be to stop cyclists running into pedestrians coming on the bus if they are idiotic enough to be passing a bus on the left.

 

[teuchter]

that's a bit like saying people should always stay inside because they might get mugged if they go outside... well yeah they might, but there's a lot they can do to minimise risks, and why should they stay inside anyway?

I think you're missing my point.

I'm not trying to tell people not to cycle. Just making the point that while we are constantly being warned about the dangers of this, that and the other, cycling seems to escape this, despite the fact that it actually is a relatively dangerous way of getting around, compared to other modes of transport.

It's up to you whether you cycle, walk, drive or get the bus. But it seems reasonable to suggest that it would be good to make you aware of the risks if suggesting you adopt one option or the other.

Regarding getting mugged ... there's constant advertising, in actual fact, warning people about the risks of street robbery, advising you to keep your mobile out of sight, etc etc.

 

[damnhippie]

Teuchter - just re-read your original post and i think you may have answered your own question....

it seems a little inconsistent for "the authorities" to be promoting a dangerous activity while simultaneously discouraging (and rightly so) other dangerous activities such as speeding, binge drinking, etc. etc.

cycling isn't comparable to speeding or binge drinking, is it? unless i've been doing something wrong all these years...

It may be that the statistics aren't as bad as I have been led to believe, or that there is a view that the health benefits from the excercise somehow outweigh the risks

i think that's pretty much it, as long as you don't treat it like the Tour de france mixed in with Space Invaders.

 

[lintin]

You are ALL missing the point !!!

Cycling doesnt have to be unsafe.

get the basics right and it will happen. then you wouldn't need to spend a fortune to advertising agencies 'promoting' it and to management consultants.

I dont see huge advertising budgets been spent promoting cycle in holland as they dont need to. Why beacuse they have the infrastructure, the secure parking, to make it safe.

Here we spend a fortune promoting cheap and nasty cycle lanes, polluted streets, and no parking. Who is benefiting from this ?

The councils are all clueless and think they are doing a great job. Really is they dont give a damn.

If they did they would solve most of the problems in a matter of months, not decades. Reality is they dont give a toss. Get a few basic council officers over from Holland for a few days and they would sort it all out.

 

[rutabowa]

II'm not trying to tell people not to cycle. Just making the point that while we are constantly being warned about the dangers of this, that and the other, cycling seems to escape this, despite the fact that it actually is a relatively dangerous way of getting around, compared to other modes of transport.

i just don't agree with this, there's plenty of warnings about the dangers of cycling, i don't think anyone gets on a bike and thinks they're immune from accidents... and all the campaigns to get peopel cycling have a big emphasis on cycling safety. so i'm not sure what your point is?

 

[Biddlybee]

Surely that's nonsense? It would be to stop cyclists running into pedestrians coming on the bus if they are idiotic enough to be passing a bus on the left.

Only idiotic if it's at a bus stop - otherwise surely that's the correct side to pass a bus on?

edit: actually that's the side you'll be on when a bus passes you - ignore me.

 

[rutabowa]

Only idiotic if it's at a bus stop - otherwise surely that's the correct side to pass a bus on?

no you should still always overtake on the right.

 

[nino_savatte]

I have been cycling in London for about 13 years and the only trouble I had was when a gang jumped out in front of me and stabbed me in Stockell.

Cars and pedestrians do seem to be quite thoughtless when considering bikes on the road though. People are always opening car doors on me, driving me into the curb or me or walking out in front of me.

Very true. The vast majority of motorists don't give you enough room and pull into cycle lanes and the advance box because they think that they can.

 

[Crispy]

A year or two ago we were being told that the open decks on routemaster buses were dangerous and this was one of the reasons for their withdrawal...
...I don't like this overemphasis on safety that seems to have become prevalent ... it just seems strange that it doesn't get applied to cycling too.

Because TFL can't be sued if you crash your bike.

 

[Biddlybee]

no you should still always overtake on the right.

just edited - ignore me

 

[teuchter]

your CTC quote teuchter - thats a 7 fold increase in motor traffic, not the accident ratio between cycles and cars - in fact if you read the quote properly...

Read it again.

2005 figures:
1 fatality per 30 million km travelled (bikes)
1 fatality per 206 million km travelled (motor vehicles)

206/30 = 6.87 times as many killed per km on bikes as in motor vehicles

so risk has decreased as total mileage by bike has increased - which kind of shits on your point.

Maybe ... don't see what that's got to do with my point though.

 

[lintin]

How to solve the nations transport problem.

Pay the French ( SNCF ) to take the railway system & the roads.

Give the Cycle network to the Dutch.

 

[myname]

That guy's a bit on the weirdly obsessed side when it comes to his hatred of cycling, you know.

His front page:

and then

Sounds like he's on a wind up. Or desperate for attention. Or an idiot.

is he talking about motor bikes?

 

[kyser_soze]

And now bus drivers aren't allowed to open the doors between stops even if you're stuck in a stationary traffic jam, in case you get run over by a hypothetical car driving along a non-existent lane between the bus and the pavement.

Um, drivers of closed door busses were NEVER allowed to do this - any that do are basically breaking an H&S rule that is useful 75% of the time (otherwise busses would be stop/start as people got out wherever they pleased)...I usually just hit the emergency exit button above the door and jump out oif traffics snarled, which also gets the driver off the hook if I get hit by something gettingout between stops...

 

[nino_savatte]

You are ALL missing the point !!!

Cycling doesnt have to be unsafe.

get the basics right and it will happen. then you wouldn't need to spend a fortune to advertising agencies 'promoting' it and to management consultants.

I dont see huge advertising budgets been spent promoting cycle in holland as they dont need to. Why beacuse they have the infrastructure, the secure parking, to make it safe.

Here we spend a fortune promoting cheap and nasty cycle lanes, polluted streets, and no parking. Who is benefiting from this ?

The councils are all clueless and think they are doing a great job. Really is they dont give a damn.

If they did they would solve most of the problems in a matter of months, not decades. Reality is they dont give a toss. Get a few basic council officers over from Holland for a few days and they would sort it all out.

Most local councils don't give a monkeys about cyclists and cycling. In my borough, they have done enough to meet the government's targets and little else. No thought went into the provision of cycle lanes here, they're just plonked on the side of the road in the form of the advisory cycle lane (which might just as well not be there at all, for all the good that they do).

 

[nino_savatte]

How to solve the nations transport problem.

Pay the French ( SNCF ) to take the railway system & the roads.

Give the Cycle network to the Dutch.

Great idea!

 

[kyser_soze]

How to solve the nations transport problem.

Pay the French ( SNCF ) to take the railway system & the roads.

Give the Cycle network to the Dutch.

I've been thinking about this:

Trains - French
Cycles - Dutch
Postal Service - Germans

 

[teuchter]

You are ALL missing the point !!!

Cycling doesnt have to be unsafe.

get the basics right and it will happen. then you wouldn't need to spend a fortune to advertising agencies 'promoting' it and to management consultants.

I dont see huge advertising budgets been spent promoting cycle in holland as they dont need to. Why beacuse they have the infrastructure, the secure parking, to make it safe.

Here we spend a fortune promoting cheap and nasty cycle lanes, polluted streets, and no parking. Who is benefiting from this ?

The councils are all clueless and think they are doing a great job. Really is they dont give a damn.

If they did they would solve most of the problems in a matter of months, not decades. Reality is they dont give a toss. Get a few basic council officers over from Holland for a few days and they would sort it all out.

I would be interested to know what the safety statistics are in Holland.

I agree they've got it much better sorted there than we have. I've actually cycled quite a lot in Holland.

But I would be interested to know if the risks are substantially lower there than they are here. Do you have some numbers?

 

[teuchter]

How to solve the nations transport problem.

Pay the French ( SNCF ) to take the railway system & the roads.

Give the Cycle network to the Dutch.

Germans to take the trains rather than the French, please.

 

[beeboo]

your CTC quote teuchter - thats a 7 fold increase in motor traffic, not the accident ratio between cycles and cars - in fact if you read the quote properly...



so risk has decreased as total mileage by bike has increased - which kind of shits on your point.

No the CTC quote does say that mile-for-mile there are more fatalities cycling than driving. And when you consider that TfL's campaigns are probably more likely to encourage people to shift from bus/tube/train (which are I'm fairly certain safer mile-for-mile than either driving or cycling) there is a point.

Not to say that TfL shouldn't be promoting cycling. But I wouldn't be at all surprised if they DO need to provide some cost/benefits justification trading of the risks of cycling against the benefits. Whilst the risks of serious injury might be very low, strategic planning does need to take these factors into consideration.

I would think Crispy's suggestion that the more people cycle, the safer cycling becomes is a good one and could quite possibly be used as a justification.

But I think you can also argue that in encouraging cycling TfL must ensure it is doing enough to help ensure that cycling in the capital is safe. I would love to cycle but I've never cycled in a city before and would be terrified. I've heard stuff about 'cycling buddy' schemes where you can pair up with an experienced cyclist for your commute until you gain enough confidence to go it alone, which I think is a great idea.

 

[Sigmund Fraud]

2005 figures:
1 fatality per 30 million km travelled (bikes)
1 fatality per 206 million km travelled (motor vehicles)

206/30 = 6.87 times as many killed per km on bikes as in motor vehicles

the 6.87 figure is an overly simplistic analysis - its relevance diminishes when you consider the total number of journeys -if all car and bicycle journeys were the same length then the the compaison is valid.

Maybe ... don't see what that's got to do with my point though.

My point - which is included in your quote from the CTC - is that the statistical risk of injury has decreased since 1950, despite the massive growth in motorised transport. Which has quite a lot to do with your point, esp in terms of rubbishing it.

 

[jigotai]

I had my first bike crash last friday

I forgot to take my feet out of the toe clips as I dismounted.

Speed: 0mph, no others involved. One witness, my prospective employer.

Doh.

 

[Biddlybee]

PMSL

(sorry)

 

[Biddlybee]

I would love to cycle but I've never cycled in a city before and would be terrified. I've heard stuff about 'cycling buddy' schemes where you can pair up with an experienced cyclist for your commute until you gain enough confidence to go it alone, which I think is a great idea.

There are a lot of training companies too - for inner city road cycling, just not widely advertised enough - well worth it if you are nervous but do want to cycle in London.

 

[kyser_soze]

I had my first bike crash last friday

I forgot to take my feet out of the toe clips as I dismounted.

Speed: 0mph, no others involved. One witness, my prospective employer.

Doh.

Wrysmile fell off her bike at zero speed a couple of days ago too...