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CW's take on the state of the UK Left today...

lebannon plenty of tv coverage and the yanks are plainy supplying one side (although israel is quite capable of building its own weapons and only does'nt because it gets most of its arms ftom the USA below cost :( )
africa no TV no us military involvement and while you could go to Palenstine and show soldarity with better than odds on getting back in one piece
africa completely diffrent kettle of fish :(
 
treelover said:
another demo already, the Lebanon crisis seems to be putting Respect/SWP into hyperdrive, however going on past form I just don't think they are genuine, never see them talking about Checheyna, Darfur, Zimbabwe, or other war zones. I also think that while they are probabaly genuinely concerned about this particular war zone, they also see it as more opportinities for recruitment(fat chance) and paper sales and more publicity for thier other 'franchises'


btw, i dont think it will long before this woman coverts!
Maxine Bowler (RESPECT),

As far as I know, the first demo had been planned for sometime, and was originally about Palestine. Then all hell broke lose in Southern Lebanon, and so the demo was hurriedly re-focused, hence the lack of Lebanese flags. The next demo is focused on Lebanon.
 
In Bloom said:
Call me a horrible, nationalist reactionary (or some such bollocks) if you like, but I'm of the opinion that only the people who live in an area can ultimately have any real say over what the solutions to that areas problems are. The way forward for the working class people living in Lebanon, Israel and Palestine lies with them.

It's not a matter of recognising national borders, it's a matter of recognising that not only do working class people living in that area understand their own situation far better than we ever could, but to attempt to impose a solution of our making on them is fundamentally anti-democratic and doomed to failure anyway.

You are trying to create a divide where there is none... [AS if the current situation was confined to those regions you mentioned originally - Lebanon, Israel, Palestine] Its far far bigger than you pretend, and also to pretend that there is a short cut is not only wishful thinking, it is doomed to failure...
 
Class War?

Right on.

71041.jpg
 
Attica said:
You are trying to create a divide where there is none... [AS if the current situation was confined to those regions you mentioned originally - Lebanon, Israel, Palestine] Its far far bigger than you pretend, and also to pretend that there is a short cut is not only wishful thinking, it is doomed to failure...
You can obfusticate all you like, but the truth is that you are not personally involved in the situation in the Middle East. At all.

What gives you the right to tell people who are effected by it what they should be doing? It's one thing to say what you think the results of the tactics being used are, it's another to say "They should be doing X"
 
Interesting.

In the book Socialism For Beginners, Anna Paczuska declared that, despite pirates’ flags being predominantly black, the term Jolly Roger was a perversion of the French jolie rouge (red and beautiful). This may have some basis in fact as the navy flag signal for mutiny was a red flag, and mutinies were often followed by the mutinous crew seizing the ship and becoming pirates themselves. Some early pirates were also said to have flown a solid red flag.
http://libcom.org/history/articles/jolly-roger-pirate-flag-origins/index.php
 
The fact that the discussion of Class War's (oh so important) statement has so quickly moved on to the anarchist perspective on pirates...
 
But hail to what ever Class War activist was singing "sell the paper" to me at Marxism - kept me going for the next 15 minutes in a kinda jig.
 
Louis MacNeice said:
.... the politics of difference - where difference, including religious difference is to be celebrated – is in the ascendance in currently dominant western liberal political discourse; the discourse within which so much of contemporary UK politics takes place.

This position is very much to the detriment of potentially universalist notions such as solidarity based on mutual recognition; these are ideass which in the past the left have championed to considerable effect.

Of course is not true for those whose politics are heavily informed by literal readings of the Bible and the Torah; they are quite happy to promote strictly limited faith group based forms of mutual recognition and solidarity, while attacking difference (divergence from their particular literal reading of which ever text) as necessarily dangerous.

Cheers - Louis Mac

And no-one's pointing out there's plenty of differences to be celebrated, without including (religious) delusion?
 
In Bloom said:
You can obfusticate all you like, but the truth is that you are not personally involved in the situation in the Middle East. At all.

What gives you the right to tell people who are effected by it what they should be doing? It's one thing to say what you think the results of the tactics being used are, it's another to say "They should be doing X"

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: Way to miss the point bruv.

I am not saying that, far from it. I am interested in asking questions and seeing how far 'we' can get in this crisis situation, what practical help the working class would appreciate, and so on. The situation is a humanitarian disaster and you fiddle with your 'do nothing' agenda while rome burns....
 
Attica said:
The situation is a humanitarian disaster and you fiddle with your 'do nothing' agenda while rome burns....
...while you, Attica, do what, exactly?

You fart on about your imaginary anti-Israeli International Brigade. Great stuff.

Long live Anarcho-Criminological Fox-Protectionism!
 
I don't normally do this but...

Attica said:
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: Way to miss the point bruv.

I am not saying that, far from it. I am interested in asking questions and seeing how far 'we' can get in this crisis situation, what practical help the working class would appreciate, and so on. The situation is a humanitarian disaster and you fiddle with your 'do nothing' agenda while rome burns....
Yeah, I've got a "do nothing" agenda. That's why I've been trying to organise a fundraiser for the Sanayeh relief centre.

:rolleyes:
 
JHE said:
...while you, Attica, do what, exactly?

You fart on about your imaginary anti-Israeli International Brigade. Great stuff.

Long live Anarcho-Criminological Fox-Protectionism!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: Look dicky dork, at least I am suggesting it should be talked about...
 
Attica said:
Hmmm, I do many things to spread the struggles (note -plural), this is only one...
Are your other activities as well-thought-out, impressive and successful as this one?
 
MC5 said:
Interesting.
In the book Socialism For Beginners, Anna Paczuska declared that, despite pirates’ flags being predominantly black, the term Jolly Roger was a perversion of the French jolie rouge (red and beautiful). This may have some basis in fact as the navy flag signal for mutiny was a red flag, and mutinies were often followed by the mutinous crew seizing the ship and becoming pirates themselves. Some early pirates were also said to have flown a solid red flag.
http://libcom.org/history/articles/j...gins/index.php
I didn't know that libcom had done that, though I am pleased that they did- I am inordinately proud of that article which I feel is the best I ever wrote.:)
you can read it in full here
 
The Jolly Roger flown by the Atlantic pirates, however, was black and either showed a skeleton or a skull and bones. Marcus Rediker provides a more convincing explanation of its origin.

The flying of the Jolly Roger was a part of the psychological war waged by the pirate band and was designed to strike terror into the hearts of those who saw it. The skull and crossed bones device was commonly used by a ship’s captain in his log, as a sign that a seaman had lost his life on voyage. As such it would be a universally recognised symbol of death. The colour of the flag indicated ‘no quarter’ and ordered the victims not to resist. Finally, Rediker argues that the name is taken from 18th century slang for sex (as in ‘a good rogering’). Quite simply, if the captain of a fat merchantman were to look out, and see through his telescope the Jolly Roger flying, then he could be sure that he was well and truly fucked.
red star 2: october 2004
 
darren redparty said:
I didn't know that libcom had done that, though I am pleased that they did- I am inordinately proud of that article which I feel is the best I ever wrote.:)
you can read it in full here

Hi Darren - I wrote the below, did you know that? Attica

The Class War symbol, The Deaths Head, Jolly Roger, Motley Crew and King Death

The Class War logo is one of the most famous anarchist symbols in Britain, including the circled @, the black flag, and the balaclava. Pirate flags of different descriptions have also been used on demonstrations in Britain and around the world recently. Piracy images are also used in Dover and in Northern France and Belgium as an emblem for smuggling. While the Class War logo itself was taken from an old record around 1983, what the emblem stands for has never been talked about. The Class War logo is a symbol of Piracy, and at the time it is estimated that 5000 men sailed beneath these colours, and it has never been more topical today given the worldwide resurgence of actual piracy, and video/CD/DVD piracy too.

Common on the black pirate flags were the human skull, or ‘deaths head’, with sometimes the entire skeleton, and a weapon such as a cutlass, sword or dart, and an hourglass (like an egg-timer). It was intended to terrify the pirates prey, but its triple interlocking themes of death, limited time, and violence also pointed out to meaningful aspects of the seaman’s life, and it is from common seamen from whom pirates originated. It also eloquently spoke of the pirate consciousness of themselves as preyed upon in turn.

What is less well known is where the original symbol came from. While piracy was used by merchants, royal, and other leaders prior to the early eighteenth century. It was then taken by the common people for their own purposes, and given it’s own flag. This is the period that we are talking about in this article, 1680-1720.

The Class War researcher has found out that it originates from the record books despotic captains used on board boats in the early 18th century to record crew members who had been killed, sometimes by the captain himself, or who had otherwise died. Pirates seized the symbol of mortality from these ship captains who used the skull as a marginal appendage in their logs to indicate a record of death, and turned it into a symbol of the class war. As pirates, and some believed it was only possible as pirates, these men were able to fight back beneath the sombre colours of King Death against those captains, merchants, governors and officials who waved the banners of brutal authority.

Pirates served in the navy, for merchantmen, privateers, and got a close look at death, brutality, fraud and other pay irregularities. Sailors usually became pirates when their ship was taken, though sometimes an entire ship would mutiny. Sailors knew life on board the pirate ship was better in several respects; the pay was better, the hours shorter, food more plentiful and of higher quality, and the discipline was egalitarian rather than hierarchical.

The social organisation of the ship was a rough egalitarianism that placed the power in the hands of the ship assembly, or ‘council of war’ as it was known. These determined strategy, and elected the captain who received no special privileges and slept with the crew. Roger was not jolly for nothing! And there’s more than a grain of truth in that smart Alec remark. Many pirates were black men too, 60 out of 100 of Blackbeards crew were black, and as many as 400 black pirates were executed by state powers. Black crewmen also made up part of the pirate vanguard, the most trusted and fearsome men who boarded prospective prizes, and some were captains.

Absolute power only resided with the captain in fighting, chasing, or being chased. At all other times he was governed by the will of the collective. This was written down in the articles of association that determined pay (decidedly levelling it), allocated authority, distributed plunder, and enforced discipline. There was a welfare scheme where a portion of the booty would go into a common fund for the needy, and by this method it also enhanced loyalty and recruitment. It took until the 20th century for pension provision to become widespread after all in advanced capitalist countries.

Pirates were class conscious and had a distinctive sense of justice too. The ‘Distribution of justice’ was a specific practice of pirates. One ship even had its own nominated ‘Dispencer of Justice’ – of course backed by the crew. Upon taking a ship they asked the crew whether the captain had been harsh, and those who were could expect to be whipped, pickled and worse. Though there is no evidence of the plank being used, it is too well known a symbol not to have been. Pirates also used abandonment on an isolated island as punishment, ‘marooning’. Fights amongst pirates were only allowed onshore that served to promote other methods of dispute resolution, and pirates also had a developed consciousness of kind, uniting in spontaneous alliances

Drawn out of the international market economy piracy was a strategy for survival and a better way of life in many ways. Pirates never managed to establish free territories or commonwealths but there is evidence of this being a desire. Authority also feared that since “no Power in those Parts of the World could have been able to dispute it with them.” The social relations of piracy were marked by loud, and sometimes violent antipathy toward traditional authority. Greeting the Royal pardon for piracy in 1717 with ‘curses for the king and all higher powers’. The pervasive anti authoritarian spirit in the culture of the common seafarer found many expressions in exuberant egalitarianism beneath the banner of King Death, but in effect this was a bastardised libertarianism. Resisting brutality and exploitation with occasional brutalities of their own, trapped in a dialectical struggle, and perhaps doomed because of it. The powers of capitalism and the state eventually swamping the social spaces for piracy.

Pirates constructed a culture of masterless men, as far removed from traditional authority as men could be in the 18th century. Beyond the church, beyond the family, beyond disciplinary labour, and using the sea to distance themselves from state power they carried out an experiment in alternative ways of living. Pirates were a floating mob with their own sense of justice. There have been features of piracy within Class War practice, and pirates and Class War have been called a ‘Motley Crew’. This is similar to the urban mob and revolutionary crowd, where different groups had their own mobility and motility. The participants rather than members having different backgrounds, with pirates often multiethnic, and always being independent of leadership from above. Long may the tradition continue.

To get more detail try;

Marcus Rediker “Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea: Merchant Seamen, Pirates and the Anglo American Maritime World 1700-1750” Cambridge University Press, 1987.

Peter Linebaugh and M. Rediker, “ The Many Headed Hydra”, Verso, 2000.

Christopher Hill, ‘Radical Pirates’ in “The Collected Essays of Christopher Hill”, Harvester Press, 1985.

C. Pennell, “Bandits at Sea”, New York University Press, 2001.
 
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