Cutting Crime?

[KeyboardJockey]

Hang 'em
Flog 'em
Burn 'em

Did you ever wonder why the rates of recidivism are higher here than elsewhere in Northern Europe?

You miscronstrue my posts again. I'm not advocating hanging, flogging or burning.

My take on why recidivism is so high in the UK is that we are not hitting crims with harsh sentences early enough that and the UK's piss poor attitude to drug policy which IMO should be treated as a medical rather than a criminal problem.

A family I grew up with had a son who was a bit of a lad but because he had so many non custodial sentences which were useless he ended up re offending until he is now doing a 10 stretch for robbery. If he had been given less community sentences at the beginning and had been banged up earlier when he was thieving cars (in a prison where his drug use could have been looked at amongst other things) then he might have not fallen as far as he did.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I've seen you advocate this before. It's crazy and barbaric and would only serve further alienate people.

I did say supervised so that only rotten fruit is lobbed not the bricks that some people would like to throw.

Don't think it would alienate people more shame them.

 

[Blagsta]

Swing to the right - do me a fucking favour - swing to reality more like.

Yeah, that's what right wingers usually say.

 

[Blagsta]

I did say supervised so that only rotten fruit is lobbed not the bricks that some people would like to throw.

Don't think it would alienate people more shame them.

If you humiliate people you make them more angry and more liable to be anti-social. Basic psychology. Your plan will only serve to make things worse.

 

[nino_savatte]

You miscronstrue my posts again. I'm not advocating hanging, flogging or burning.

My take on why recidivism is so high in the UK is that we are not hitting crims with harsh sentences early enough that and the UK's piss poor attitude to drug policy which IMO should be treated as a medical rather than a criminal problem.

In Scandanavia (and other countries) they don't "hit crims with harsh sentences"; the emphasis is on rehabilitation...or maybe that's a word that is often associated in some folks mind with words like "kindness" or "liberal". The crime has to fit the punishment...or so we are still led to believe.

Adopting the US model of punishment is not the way forward.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Yeah, that's what right wingers usually say.

Bollocks - I'm still a left winger its just I'm more aware that some people will take the piss whatever you do.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

If you humiliate people you make them more angry and more liable to be anti-social. Basic psychology. Your plan will only serve to make things worse.

No I don't think it will. Make them ashamed and they may be more willing to not be antisocial. You are worried about making anti social scum angry why not show some concern for the victims?

 

[nino_savatte]

The stocks is one of the more of reactionary ideas that I've heard. Why not advocate the return of the ducking stool or demand a return of the gibbet?

There is nothing 'left wing' about your ideas on crime and punishment, KBJ.

 

[Blagsta]

No I don't think it will. Make them ashamed and they may be more willing to not be antisocial.

It won't make them ashamed. It will make them angry. You don't have much understanding of people do you?

You are worried about making anti social scum angry why not show some concern for the victims?

Oh fuck off.

 

[Blagsta]

Bollocks - I'm still a left winger its just I'm more aware that some people will take the piss whatever you do.

You're not a left winger and you haven't been for a long time.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

In Scandanavia (and other countries) they don't "hit crims with harsh sentences"; the emphasis is on rehabilitation...or maybe that's a word that is often associated in some folks mind with words like "kindness" or "liberal". The crime has to fit the punishment...or so we are still led to believe.

The punishment must fit the crime I don't really have any problem with that. Many people can be saved by rehabilitiation but the problem is that as in thecase I mentioned earlier it seems that rehab is tried long after the person should have been jailed.

I'm all for showing kindness and being liberal with crims but there comes a point when you have to say to someone 'at this point in your life you are irredeemable'. In the case I mentioned before if the guy had been banged up when he was thieving cars instead of being passed from well meaning social worker to well meaning social worker he might have been diverted from more serious crime which has ruined his life.

Adopting the US model of punishment is not the way forward.

I'm not advocating a US model of punishment.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

It won't make them ashamed. It will make them angry. You don't have much understanding of people do you?

So what. Someone who is tormenting his or her neighbours and the vunerable gets angry poor diddums maybe it will teach them a lesson in how to behave. If the crims self esteem is damaged by beiing in the stocks or some other community punishment and because of that commits another crime then remove them from that community, simple. Whose side are you on blagsta? The victim or the perpetrator?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

You're not a left winger and you haven't been for a long time.

I'm a realistic left winger.

 

[nino_savatte]

I'm a realistic left winger.

That's what David Horowitz said until he realised he really was quite right wing.

 

[nino_savatte]

The punishment must fit the crime I don't really have any problem with that. Many people can be saved by rehabilitiation but the problem is that as in thecase I mentioned earlier it seems that rehab is tried long after the person should have been jailed.

I'm all for showing kindness and being liberal with crims but there comes a point when you have to say to someone 'at this point in your life you are irredeemable'. In the case I mentioned before if the guy had been banged up when he was thieving cars instead of being passed from well meaning social worker to well meaning social worker he might have been diverted from more serious crime which has ruined his life.




I'm not advocating a US model of punishment.

The current British model is simply a watered down version of the US model with its emphasis on punishment and barbaric conditions.

 

[chymaera]

The current British model is simply a watered down version of the US model with its emphasis on punishment and barbaric conditions.

I suspect prison is lot better place to be than sleeping on the street and getting pissed on and beaten up.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

The current British model is simply a watered down version of the US model with its emphasis on punishment and barbaric conditions.

Don't think so.

I think you must have punishment, retribution and rehabilitation as a mix.

If someone commits a crime then attempt to rehab the person (but not the continual conveyor belt of community sentences that thugs contiune to get before they get a derisory sentence in prison that no way fits the crime) if that fails then prison. If someone refuses to respond to rehab and a community shaming punishment hasn't worked then the only place that person can go is prison.


My idea of the sort of pathway that an offender should take to protect the community is as follows:

1st small offence - caution (eg minor anti social behaviour)

2nd small offence - caution plus warning (a reapeat of the previous behaviour or a similar level offence

3rd offence - community shaming punishment (posters on shop windows for lesser offence, 8 hours in stocks for greater offence.

4th offence - prison.

At point 1 and 2 there should be extensive rehab involvement if applicable.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I suspect prison is lot better place to be than sleeping on the street and getting pissed on and beaten up.

You've got a point there. If the disasterous care in the community policy hadn't come about then we wouldn't have damaged homeless mentally ill people committing crimes just to get a bed.

 

[Blagsta]

So what. Someone who is tormenting his or her neighbours and the vunerable gets angry poor diddums maybe it will teach them a lesson in how to behave. If the crims self esteem is damaged by beiing in the stocks or some other community punishment and because of that commits another crime then remove them from that community, simple. Whose side are you on blagsta? The victim or the perpetrator?

If someone becomes more angry and alienated then they will commit more anti-social crime. Your solution is self defeating.

Btw, asking whose side I'm on merely shows up the idiocy of your argument.

 

[Blagsta]

I'm a realistic left winger.

You're not left wing KJ. I doubt you ever have been. You're akin to an old skool tory.

 

[Blagsta]

You've got a point there. If the disasterous care in the community policy hadn't come about then we wouldn't have damaged homeless mentally ill people committing crimes just to get a bed.

But hey, we can put them in the stocks instead. That'll learn em!

 

[KeyboardJockey]

If someone becomes more angry and alienated then they will commit more anti-social crime. Your solution is self defeating.

Btw, asking whose side I'm on merely shows up the idiocy of your argument.

My idea isn't self defeating. If someone still offends after a community shaming punishment then fuck them off to prison. End of story.

You do seem to put more effort in defending anti social shits than decent people which is why I asked 'whose side are you on?'

 

[KeyboardJockey]

But hey, we can put them in the stocks instead. That'll learn em!

Again you like some other posters choose to misread my posts.

I didn't say that the mentally ill should be put in the stocks the mentally ill need the asylums rebuilt and decent well funded community care.

The stocks and other community shaming punishments shoudl be reserved for those who deserve it.

 

[Blagsta]

My idea isn't self defeating. If someone still offends after a community shaming punishment then fuck them off to prison. End of story.

You do seem to put more effort in defending anti social shits than decent people which is why I asked 'whose side are you on?'

You're a moron. You can't even see what you're proposing will make things worse and you can't see that my argument is nothing to do with defending anti-social people.

 

[nino_savatte]

Don't think so.

I think you must have punishment, retribution and rehabilitation as a mix.

If someone commits a crime then attempt to rehab the person (but not the continual conveyor belt of community sentences that thugs contiune to get before they get a derisory sentence in prison that no way fits the crime) if that fails then prison. If someone refuses to respond to rehab and a community shaming punishment hasn't worked then the only place that person can go is prison.


My idea of the sort of pathway that an offender should take to protect the community is as follows:

1st small offence - caution (eg minor anti social behaviour)

2nd small offence - caution plus warning (a reapeat of the previous behaviour or a similar level offence

3rd offence - community shaming punishment (posters on shop windows for lesser offence, 8 hours in stocks for greater offence.

4th offence - prison.

At point 1 and 2 there should be extensive rehab involvement if applicable.

You've set yourself up as something of a latter day Woodrow Wyatt these days, KBJ.

How does any of these ideas differ from the sorts of punishments that were dispensed in days of yore? Okay, there's no mutilation here but the humiliation is there. I also noticed that there is little mention of rehabilitation and then, it is only mentioned in relation to drugs. Why?

More importantly, why is "retribution" so important? The idea of retribution is informed by relgious Orthodoxy. Have you ever read Foucault's Discipline and Punish? That gives a good historical account of how the idea of the punishment to fit the crime came about. Did you see Horizon on BBC2 last week, where Portillo was investigating 'humane' forms of capital punishment?

 

[Blagsta]

Again you like some other posters choose to misread my posts.

That's what your doing to me.

I didn't say that the mentally ill should be put in the stocks the mentally ill need the asylums rebuilt and decent well funded community care.

The stocks and other community shaming punishments shoudl be reserved for those who deserve it.

Who exactly deserves it?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

You're a moron. You can't even see what you're proposing will make things worse and you can't see that my argument is nothing to do with defending anti-social people.

So now you are resorting to abuse - losing the argument does that to some people.


Why would discomforting an antisocial shit make things worse? Please explain as I don't speak 'wet blanket' very well

You wouldn't worry about making a rapist angry becuase he's been jailed so why are you worryhing about an anti social lowlife being made angry becuase he has had a commuity shaming punishment (not limited to stocks it could be posters up saying 'this person has offended and include details fo crime and picture). In my POV you should give this persona chance to reform and if they don't then shame them and if that don't work then jail is the only place for them.

What I object to is crims getting a constant overlong list of community punishments before prison kicks in.

The prison option should be earlier in many cases.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Who exactly deserves it?

IMO Community Shaming Punishments shold be reserved for vandals, car thieves, those who harrass and frighten their neighbours.

For juveniles a community shaming punishment should be posters detailing ther crims name address location of criminality and details of crimes and details of which shops etc the person is barred from.

For over 18s then it should be supervised stocks or a similar punishment.

It goes without saying that there should be a strong element of post punishment rehab involved.

 

[Blagsta]

So now you are resorting to abuse - losing the argument does that to some people.

Errrr...if you're not polite enough to actually read my posts accurately I will return the impoliteness.

Why would discomforting an antisocial shit make things worse? Please explain as I don't speak 'wet blanket' very well

I've just told you.

You wouldn't worry about making a rapist angry becuase he's been jailed so why are you worryhing about an anti social lowlife being made angry becuase he has had a commuity shaming punishment (not limited to stocks it could be posters up saying 'this person has offended and include details fo crime and picture). In my POV you should give this persona chance to reform and if they don't then shame them and if that don't work then jail is the only place for them.

What I object to is crims getting a constant overlong list of community punishments before prison kicks in.

The prison option should be earlier in many cases.

You really don't get it. You appear to be living in la la land.

 

[Blagsta]

IMO Community Shaming Punishments shold be reserved for vandals, car thieves, those who harrass and frighten their neighbours.

For juveniles a community shaming punishment should be posters detailing ther crims name address location of criminality and details of crimes and details of which shops etc the person is barred from.

For over 18s then it should be supervised stocks or a similar punishment.

It goes without saying that there should be a strong element of post punishment rehab involved.

Do you understand the concept of "acting out"?