BlueSquareThing
With chips
OK, hadn't thought of it like that I spose: all the externals and so on. When it comes down to it that makes it a processor really.
Customers return 'confusing' Linux netbooks
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editor
hiraethified
How does getting a perfectly capable platform that works perfectly with all my apps - and offers a superior battery life in the bargain - mean I've been "shafted"?
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
This 'culture of entitlement to instant gratification' which engenders the attitude that you shouldn't have to put any time or effort into anything to get what you want out of it has a lot to answer for - unfortunately it's appears to be spreading.
load of abolsoute fucking bollocks which totally misunderstands useablity...
Useablity isn't there in Linux yet it just isn't. Things should be intuitive and that means at a base level doing some shit like windows rather than getting on some purest hobby horse elitist view point.
Imagine you have been told your entirely life this is how you speak english, then coming along one day and finding out some parts of the world have decided to speak a pidgeon verison of english which sounds familar but which you now don't have the ability to communicate in any more.
This version of english is more traditionally based on the correct announication and pronunciation of words and word sounds but it's not how people have always spoken before. what they have previously learned cannot be put into practice because it no longer works like that and there's a new set of gramma and spelling rules to accompany it.
To continue the analyogy the new variant of english only has dictionaries and thesaurs written in terminology familar to those of accomplished ligistic scolars and native new english speakers.
Is it any wonder that people would reject this out of hand because it's so alien to what they are used too.
Usability seeks to redress this but it's high time that the linux community stopped their elitism and got with the usability program if it's for home user at least going to be anything near an alternative.
Look fuck this "my OS is better" rubbish. This my partition system on the 900.
Did away with a swap partition yesterday.
It's the weekend. Most people will want to go out, perhaps buy some stuff. Heck, maybe one of those inky-dinky laptops that everyone is talking about.
Most ppl will be assuming that this "Linux thing" is a rip-off of MS and that it's free because some one wrote a version of Windows in their spare time. As far as they will be concerned if an OS runs on IBM-clones then it's gonna be doze or very much like it.
The choice to do what you like with an OS can be unsettling for people, especially when all of the decisions have been made for your by your closed OS.
That leave the manufacturers and distributors to work together and make an "easy transition from doze" interface [0]. That takes time and testing.
[0] See blag, ubuntu et. al
Code:
df -h
Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on
/dev/sda2 3.7G 962M 2.5G 28% /
tmpfs 502M 0 502M 0% /lib/init/rw
udev 10M 56K 10M 1% /dev
tmpfs 502M 0 502M 0% /dev/shm
/dev/sda1 92M 20M 67M 23% /boot
/dev/sdb1 15G 6.2G 7.9G 45% /homeDid away with a swap partition yesterday.
It's the weekend. Most people will want to go out, perhaps buy some stuff. Heck, maybe one of those inky-dinky laptops that everyone is talking about.
Most ppl will be assuming that this "Linux thing" is a rip-off of MS and that it's free because some one wrote a version of Windows in their spare time. As far as they will be concerned if an OS runs on IBM-clones then it's gonna be doze or very much like it.
The choice to do what you like with an OS can be unsettling for people, especially when all of the decisions have been made for your by your closed OS.
That leave the manufacturers and distributors to work together and make an "easy transition from doze" interface [0]. That takes time and testing.
[0] See blag, ubuntu et. al
which is the whole point of ubuntu.
EastEnder
Brixton Barnacle
Actually, if I buy a car from someone I expect to be able to get straight into the drivers seat and drive it away. I may need to consult the manual in order to work the SatNav, but if the accelerator pedal isn't where I expect it to be then I would most definitely take it back and demand a refund!Isn't that a bit like buying a car from someone, then taking it back and demanding a refund because you don't know how to drive?
This 'culture of entitlement to instant gratification' which engenders the attitude that you shouldn't have to put any time or effort into anything to get what you want out of it has a lot to answer for - unfortunately it's appears to be spreading.
I spend my days getting frustrated with incompetent users, but it's not wholly their fault - computers are still nowhere near truly "user friendly". You wouldn't tolerate it with any other kind of device - I might accept having to RTFM if I want my new PVR to record every other episode of the Simpsons apart from on days that have an "M" in them, but if I just want to record what's on the telly right now, in front on me, I expect to be able to simply bang a big red "Record" button and be done with it.
Good design dictates that complexity should be always be hidden from the user. If the user wants to do something clever, then it's not unreasonable to expect them to do a bit of learning first. But if they just want to surf the web, write letters, download photos off their camera, etc, it's not acceptable to expect them to read the manual first - to do so smacks of very poor design.
I'm not saying Windows is all that much more user friendly than Linux, personally I don't really think it is, it's simply that the vast majority of PC users are already indoctrinated to Windows' idiosyncrasies. If they'd been weaned on something like Ubuntu, they'd find that more natural.
No OS has got it completely right yet, which is why it makes more sense to moan at the companies that make the OS's, not the users who struggle to use them.
hendo
Fish finger sandwiches
I've got a desktop at home with plenty of grunt. But the odd thing is that apart from processing photos and playing the odd game I now mainly use the netbook. It's less of a faff.
hendo
Fish finger sandwiches
I agree with editor and garf; I miss being able to download bits of random software and try them out. It doesn't make me thick, or a 'paytard', rather someone who can't spend days working out how to deal with xandros via an old fashioned terminal.
newbie
undisambiguated
nope. if 'most people' really are as ignorant as you claim, which I doubt, maybe it's because they've read so much evangelical praise they think Linux is more capable than it actually is. in particular that it's capable of satisfying a much wider range of realworld requirements than it actually is.
nope, what causes the difficulty is the lack of capability of Linux to do anything but the most basic, lowest common denominator, consumer computing. Sure, you can do browsing, email and officy stuff but beyond that there's not a huge choice and what there is is mostly shrouded in geekery. Equally there's a reasonable range of hardware that can be made to work, with enough trial and error, but there's nothing like the out-of-the-box compatibility Windows has.
it's not the interface that matters, we can all use a diverse range of interfaces from phones to settop boxes to digital cameras and we- the general public- lap up change when we want what's on offer.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
To be quite honest I do this _far_ more often with Linux systems than any other, simply because of the package management. My Ubuntu machine is packed with all sorts of crap simply because, when I do a search on Synaptic for something, I get half a dozen alternatives which I can download and install immediately just by ticking a box, without having to worry about spyware and registry junk either.
In fact I have a bad tendency of filling my Eee's titchy drive with junk as well, but the average user is unlikely to look up how to do that, which they probably meant to happen (remember that it was designed with education in mind as a significant market). This is nothing to do with it being "Linux", this is a design choice. Something like one of the mobile device distros coming out would have a far shallower skills curve there.
EastEnder
Brixton Barnacle
This is true, although it's really the result of Microsoft's dominance, rather than Linux's shortcomings. After all, what kind of PC manufacturer would produce a machine that wasn't designed to run Windows out of the box? That'd be commercial suicide. In many ways Linux should be applauded for how easily it does install on most systems - it's operating in an environment that was specially tailored to a competing OS. Not that that makes much difference to the uninitiated, confronted with a choice between an OS that just works and one that might require a few tweaks.
which is basically bollocks. see back in the thread for "linux" compatibility from a recent, consumer orientated distro like "ubuntu". oh, and linux based desktop do tons of non-common demoninator stuff. as the corps like google who deploy it for end-users.
a lot of this thread comes across as mis-informed fud.
and ""Linuxistas" ... never actually seen one. all the people i know who use a lunix distrubtion (where is this mythical "linux" operating system) tend to be quite helpful. though part of the problem is trying to change peoples misconcpetions after they spent years doing the long-winded microsoft way.
Heh.
If you feel a (debatable under real usage) few minutes of battery life is worth paying for and you don't mind slower boot/shutdown times, downgraded hardware (- 8Gb), vastly increased exposure to all manner of malware and viruses or trusting your data to a 'closed source' corporate slavemaster that's your business.
As I said: Fine, be a paytard and buy Windows.
My point is that starting a thread claiming 'one in the eye for those who think Linux is as easy to use as XP' (c/w borked link) doesn't really demonstrate anything about the usability of Linux OSs or open source software - particularly when it turns out to be utter bollocks, anyway.
Besides - and perhaps above - all the practical reasons why open source software shouldn't be dismissed out of hand, there are some powerful ethical reasons as to why I chose to use it.
Just compare the GNU GPL with any one of the EULAs you've scrolled past (and never read) on the way to the 'I Agree' button.
But fine, if you consider all of that and decide that it's not worth the little extra effort to familiarise yourself with something *new* - that you rather like the taste of... [no, I won't say it
] - or you don't think is quite rich enough yet, go for it.
Just don't slag open source software off for no good reason.
If you feel a (debatable under real usage) few minutes of battery life is worth paying for and you don't mind slower boot/shutdown times, downgraded hardware (- 8Gb), vastly increased exposure to all manner of malware and viruses or trusting your data to a 'closed source' corporate slavemaster that's your business.
As I said: Fine, be a paytard and buy Windows.
My point is that starting a thread claiming 'one in the eye for those who think Linux is as easy to use as XP' (c/w borked link) doesn't really demonstrate anything about the usability of Linux OSs or open source software - particularly when it turns out to be utter bollocks, anyway.
What a stupid analogy. Amusing, though, given your curious spelling.
Well, exactly. As mentioned, the supplied Xandros does that all that and more fine, if it doesn't do what you want it to, you have the choice of getting to grips with the command line, or spending an hour sticking the 'more pointy-clicky' distro of your choice on it.
Besides - and perhaps above - all the practical reasons why open source software shouldn't be dismissed out of hand, there are some powerful ethical reasons as to why I chose to use it.
Just compare the GNU GPL with any one of the EULAs you've scrolled past (and never read) on the way to the 'I Agree' button.
But fine, if you consider all of that and decide that it's not worth the little extra effort to familiarise yourself with something *new* - that you rather like the taste of... [no, I won't say it
] - or you don't think is quite rich enough yet, go for it.Just don't slag open source software off for no good reason.
EastEnder
Brixton Barnacle
I think you might've missed my point slightly....Well, exactly. As mentioned, the supplied Xandros does that all that and more fine, if it doesn't do what you want it to, you have the choice of getting to grips with the command line, or spending an hour sticking the 'more pointy-clicky' distro of your choice on it.
Besides - and perhaps above - all the practical reasons why open source software shouldn't be dismissed out of hand, there are some powerful ethical reasons as to why I chose to use it.
Just compare the GNU GPL with any one of the EULAs you've scrolled past (and never read) on the way to the 'I Agree' button.
But fine, if you consider all of that and decide that it's not worth the little extra effort to familiarise yourself with something *new* - that you rather like the taste of... [no, I won't say it
Just don't slag open source software off for no good reason.
I use Linux all the time, both in GUI & server form, it's what I do for a living. But something that's touted as a consumer offering should work, with zero user intervention, out of the box. Otherwise, quite simply, they won't use it. Try telling my 60 year old mother to RTFM...
I would choose Linux over Windows every time, but it can't compete (yet) with Windows as a no-brainer, consumer orientated OS. Until it can, it's acceptance will be severely limited.
newbie
undisambiguated
what tons of stuff? I'm into walking and birdwatching- are there any Linux distro bluetooth GPS supported OS 1:50,000 maps or RSPB ident software? They're available for Windows and I can easily transfer them to my PDA or phone, and then transfer user data back again. Your distro of choice does not satisfy my needs unless it can offer that.
what proportion of this generation phones simply plug in and work for all their functions with <whichever> Linux <distro> the way they do with Windows? same question with digi cameras, and the range of media players. are you seriously going to claim the range of games is so wide? or that there is the same vast range of software to do stuff from dog training to sailing simulation?
what proportion of this generation phones simply plug in and work for all their functions with <whichever> Linux <distro> the way they do with Windows? same question with digi cameras, and the range of media players. are you seriously going to claim the range of games is so wide? or that there is the same vast range of software to do stuff from dog training to sailing simulation?
I think you might've missed my point slightly....
I can assure you it was entirely deliberate.
My 60 yr old mother seems to manage, despite using Windows at work - and never usually passing up an opportunity to phone me.
My sister, however - with her new laptop - has given up ringing me since the conversation that ended "Vista? Oh, God. I am so sorry... <click>"
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
I think you might've missed my point slightly....
I use Linux all the time, both in GUI & server form, it's what I do for a living. But something that's touted as a consumer offering should work, with zero user intervention, out of the box. Otherwise, quite simply, they won't use it. Try telling my 60 year old mother to RTFM...
I would choose Linux over Windows every time, but it can't compete (yet) with Windows as a no-brainer, consumer orientated OS. Until it can, it's acceptance will be severely limited.
I would disagree. I think current distros are quite able to work as well as, or better than, Windows as out-of-the-box installs for most users. If I suggest something like Ubuntu to someone (usually because I can't be cocked with fixing the problems they're having with Windows) they ask
1. "can I get on the internet?" - yes, it's got firefox, you know firefox
2. "can I read my email?" - yes, it's got loads of email programs, or you can use webmail
3. "can I use MSN?" - yes, it's got IM clients and they've not got ads in either
4. "can I play my music and watch videos?" - yes, various bits and pieces
5. "can I read word docs and stuff?" - yes, openoffice
and sometimes
6. "can I play games?" - uh, probably not. But you can always boot into Windows to play the odd game. (I don't bother recommending linux to people who I know are heavy gamers in the first place tbh.)
I know that they will have their hand holded the whole time from when they put the install CD in to the point where they have a working system, and beyond. Linux installs are easier than XP installs imo. I also know they won't even have to do anything extra to get what they need because all that comes with Ubuntu, Mint or whatever - and they would with XP. I would say that that counts as a no-brainer OS.
The main thing that needs to be addressed is laptop hardware compatibility, since so many people now have laptops as their only machines. A lot of that is down to some standard laptop hardware being closed, and that isn't so much a problem with distros as a social issue. On that basis, having netbooks running linux is important, because it helps to convince hardware manufacturers that yeah, maybe they should open this shit up if people are going to want to have drivers.
i could probably dig up obscure programs or tasks that windows / mac cant do either ... but.. im guessing the rspb ident software is just a databse with a fancy frontend. not exactly complicated to hook-up.
cameras : so far i havent found a camera that will plug straight in and transfer pics. it will also grab images off an iphone.
what proportion of phones : quite a few, and its quite easy to set up blue-tooth communications.
media-players : it will deal with ipods and most media players that are mass-media, usb devices.
im sure ubuntu wont satisfy your personal demands, but this doesnt mean you can dismiss it for others. windows cant often do task x or run program y, but i dont tell others its not ready based on my needs.
Have any of you lot ever used CPW?
Well put FridgeMagnet.
I was looking around for a decent, non-technical explanation regarding why it is a 'social' issue rather than a purely 'technical' one...
This came fairly close (the last paragraph), but isn't quite it... This too.
This CNet story from a while ago highlights some of the drivers (sorry!
) at work within the industry:
The whole 'hardware compatibility issue' warrants a little explaining.
I was looking around for a decent, non-technical explanation regarding why it is a 'social' issue rather than a purely 'technical' one...
This came fairly close (the last paragraph), but isn't quite it... This too.
This CNet story from a while ago highlights some of the drivers (sorry!
) at work within the industry:
You talkin' to ME?Have any of you lot ever used CPW?
...only on the way home from the pub.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
I must also point out that there are a whole load of consumer gadgets, particularly phones, which aren't compatible with OS X either, but I've never heard anyone say "oh well OS X just isn't ready for the desktop".
chilango
Ha! Ha! Armageddon
From a different perspective...
....that of my other half.
The linux Eee is great for me precisely because I can't:
a) Put Football Manager on it
b) Run (and therefore tinker with) my iTunes collection on it.
c) Faff about downloading all kinds of trial/free software on it just cos its there.
Meaning that I have less distractions from what I should be doing and less chance of breaking or otherwise screwing up my machine and thus needing to use hers.
Of course, feel free to let me know just how i can put FM09 on it, discretely!
....that of my other half.
The linux Eee is great for me precisely because I can't:
a) Put Football Manager on it
b) Run (and therefore tinker with) my iTunes collection on it.
c) Faff about downloading all kinds of trial/free software on it just cos its there.
Meaning that I have less distractions from what I should be doing and less chance of breaking or otherwise screwing up my machine and thus needing to use hers.
Of course, feel free to let me know just how i can put FM09 on it, discretely!
newbie
undisambiguated
'obscure'... that's the point. the list Mr Magnet made is the lowest common denominator stuff that more-or-less all of us want to do. After that each of us has different wants, and those can easily be dismissed as obscure, but telling me or anyone else that simply because what I want to do is too obscure for Linux doesn't really cut it. I can do it on Windows, if there isn't that possibility within a Linux distro the problem is not with me for wanting it.
I'm curious what you tasks you can't do on Windows that you can on a Linux distro (and no, things thta only programmers/developers would want to do or understand don't count- we all know Linux is good at that stuff).
no. the complicated thing is getting all the photos, all the distribution maps and population data, all the birdsong, all the text. Joining it together is a programming task which I'm sure can be done in Linux, but the point is it hasn't been.
so Linux only users are restricted to a subset of phones if they want to link at all, and a smaller subset if they want anything other than bluetooth. kindof proves my point.
I'm not, I'm explaining why those who don't want their netbook to run Linux aren't stupid. Go back and read the sneers earlier in this thread (and billions of others) about the people who prefer XP.
No, but vast numbers 0f users run Windows in a VM for exactly that reason.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
"Vast numbers" being "about 2" - nobody runs Windows in VW to interface with their damn phone. They either run Windows or they don't.
Either way, the point is still the same - OS X is "ready for the desktop".
Either way, the point is still the same - OS X is "ready for the desktop".
I can run my Debian (different distros support varying hardware, so there will probably be a distro for any machine you encounter, but Debian will run on almost all of them) on pretty much any computer that comes into my possession and nearly all of the available peripheral hardware available for that computer will also work.
Peripheral hardware that I bought ten (or more) years ago will probably still work on the next version of my distro of choice (hardware compatibility is generally not dropped from the kernel as long as there is someone motivated to maintain the driver).
Play DVDs (okay, so that one's a little tongue in cheek, but I do know people who use windows for everything except playing DVDs, because setting up DVD playing under GNU/Linux is so much less hassle than setting it up under windows)
Some obscure things that straddle the geek/nongeek divide (bulk renaming of files, for example).
If you plug a phone into a computer, it should say "Hey! I'm a hard disk!" and the host OS should be able to treat it as such, and everything JFW. No special drivers should be required -- there is absolutely no reason the complexity cannot be hidden in the phone' firmware. The same ought to be true of music players -- any USB mass storage device should advertise itself as "just a hard disk" and any complexity dealt with by the firmware.
Therefore, if you can't just plug your phone in to any computer that knows how to drive a USB storage device and expect it to work, then the problem lies with the phone (or music player, or ...), not the computer (irrespective of which OS it's running -- GNU/Linux, *BSD, MacOS X, windows *...).
So, if you want your phone to work with all computers, but it doesn't, get a better phone. If everybody did this, the manufacturers would (eventually) notice the skewed demand, and get their engineering departments to buck their fucking ideas up, which will in turn reduce complexity in windows (fewer third party drivers make windows more stable) and make Macs and other *nixen more attractive to a wider audience. The rising tide would lift all boats (replace with your preferred cliche according to taste).
what does count ? what do you count by "programmer / developer" stuff ? one handy thing is to seemlessly forward applications from one box to another. eg. run firefox across the next work and have full cut'n'paste / drag'n'drop with local services. is that too developer ?
problem is most linux distros have umpteen squillion handy apps all installed out of the box. going to a fresh install of windows feels like a kick in the teeth. all the downloading from different websites just to get a decent system. and there's no package manager installed by default.
so ... if tomorrow i decided to right a app which did this your point would be ? still just a database with a fancy frontend. hasnt been done because no-one is sufficiently interested. and, tbh, it more suits a web-app.
sounds like windows tbh. ive found bluetooth more hassle to setup in xp.
i wouldnt say theyre stupid. just scared of change. very common human attribute and one everyone in IT has to face. just like buying a car. the controls on a car arent optimised for the most efficient driving control. their just the ones everyones used to. same with keyboards. and what sneers ? im just trying to counter the fud thats in this thread.
when you plucked that figure out of your ass did it come with a survey ?
and usb support in vmware is sketchy. Similar threads
