Culture Vs Polity
- Thread starter kyser_soze
- Start date
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
Enjoyed.
Nice... a vast new country to explore.
Will finish House of Suns, and then get some Asher.... suggestions to start with welcome.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Finished House Of Suns over the weekend - demolished it in 2 sittings!
Good book, some excellent high concept stuff in it. Personally preferred The Prefect from his latest offerings, but that's only cos it's set in Rev Space and HoS isn't and I loves the Rev Space universe...
Good book, some excellent high concept stuff in it. Personally preferred The Prefect from his latest offerings, but that's only cos it's set in Rev Space and HoS isn't and I loves the Rev Space universe...
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
Gridlinked is the first of the Cormac series, or Skinner for the start of the Spatterjay sequence
(I like Spatterjay best)
(I like Spatterjay best)
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
OO, the Orbonnai. I know all about them from 'The Engineer: REconditioned'
BTW dotty, what did you think of Line War?
BTW dotty, what did you think of Line War?
Is the culture meant to be Communism and the Polity capitalism?
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
To my shame, I've not yet read it. Also skipped brass man somehow
must devote some cash to asher, I've been heretically reading non science fiction for a while.
kabbes
First intersubjective, then internalised
Haven't read Polity stuff, but I don't think that terms like "communism" and "capitalism" even make sense in the context of something like the Culture.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
The Polity is a kind of capitalist social democracy - the AIs basically make sure everyone is housed, fed etc and ensure that corporations have limited profit margins, agreed on areas of growth etc and there are no real limits to people travelling about on the Runcible network BUT most of the polity are planet rather than ship/ring dwellers, and as such there are still lots of social issues with some planets.
So while there are 'capitalists' and there's exchange currency in The Polity, it's not so simple as cap/comm in comparison.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
Culture is pretty much post-scarcity anarchism. Polity is a beningn capitalism, iirc. Certainly the out-Polity worlds are the worst sort of 'anarcho-capitalism'
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
The Culture is, as described by Banks, a techno-anarchist utopia, with a little bit of body facism thrown in.
I need to get back into his scifi stuff. Read loads when I was about 18-19, but none since.
fractionMan
Custom Title
Enjoyed.
Nice... a vast new country to explore.
Will finish House of Suns, and then get some Asher.... suggestions to start with welcome.
I'm on house of suns at the moment, so I'll porbably move on to Asher myself. That or a bit more stross. I enjoyed the one about the sex bot
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
TBH, I think the Culture as anarcho-utopia is a big con. The Minds run everything, with minimal input from the humans that inhabit the ships, rings etc - it's almost like a playground in fact, where every child is well mannered, well behaved, never ask for anything too excessive etc...I dunno, the Polity seems to have a lot more energy coursing about within it, while the Culture...I dunno. You've got SC (which is largely comprised of drones, minds and non-culture biologicals) and the average teeny culture vessel is cannoned up for purposes of peace...still...put it this way, as I've read and reread The Culture books I'm becoming less enchanted with the society and more given to seeing where Byr, and more importantly Bora Horza Gobuchul were coming from.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
I'm on house of suns at the moment, so I'll porbably move on to Asher myself. That or a bit more stross. I enjoyed the one about the sex bot
Glasshouse is worth a read.
Bob_the_lost
Elsewhere
It's a weird book, love it but it's odd. Almost like first and last men, the book tells you more of the author and the era than about any possible future. Unlike first and last men it's a very good read.
The culture is stagnant, there is no reason for being nothing to strive for or against. Imperfect and clinging on to what it has out of some mis guided impression that it's flaws are strengths. Be like the perfect AI and sublime. The culture is also a very inefficent society, they rely on superior force and technology, faced with an oponent of equal tech and militaristic aims (plus a few decades of buildup time) they'd be crushed.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Read it some time ago - about the Oakie cities and whatnot? Interesting concept, marred by the fact it was a 1950s special and as such treated women like cyphers...and it actualy has some proper maths and stuff in it...
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
Well that's the great debate isn't it? Is the Culture anodyne and a playground?
No, those who go looking can find excitement, go out Culture and return anytime they like.
What are humans good at: pleasuring themselves, tool making. When you have the perfect benign tool, then what? Then humanity does what pleases it and the weakly godlike AI's can sort out the rest.
The vitality of Polity society is in essence driven by crises and hardship-also expansion.
As an 'in-play' civilisation, the Culture is a far better place to live.
imo
Bob_the_lost
Elsewhere
Nah, that's about how the Culture's minds use it's humans like pawns. Tools to be manipulated in a larger game of chess.
The real player of games never even gets a namecheck in the book.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
Idirian War proves that wrong- They were back-footed by an equal force then struck back decisively once on war footing.
Strife does not define what it is to be human, nor does the near-perfect Culture society deny opportunities to seek out strife for those who feel a desire for it.
kabbes
First intersubjective, then internalised
Yeah, it also helps to remember that Cities in Flight was originally four different books, written out of order. They were trying to appeal to a market place and drum up interest.
I love reading old Sci Fi that combines some generally incredible vision for the future in terms of both tech and society with an incredible lack of awareness of other types of social change that are just round the corner. It's almost like you learn more about society and culture from this yin/yang of prediction than from stuff written within the social context you already occupy. The Sci Fi Masterworks series is great for alerting me to this kind of thing.
First and Last Men, incidentally, is one of the few Sci Fi books I've not been able to finish. It's brilliant, but after ten pages you feel like you've gone ten rounds with Ali.
I love reading old Sci Fi that combines some generally incredible vision for the future in terms of both tech and society with an incredible lack of awareness of other types of social change that are just round the corner. It's almost like you learn more about society and culture from this yin/yang of prediction than from stuff written within the social context you already occupy. The Sci Fi Masterworks series is great for alerting me to this kind of thing.
First and Last Men, incidentally, is one of the few Sci Fi books I've not been able to finish. It's brilliant, but after ten pages you feel like you've gone ten rounds with Ali.
Bob_the_lost
Elsewhere
Not an equivalent force though, no AI in the same league as the minds.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
In fact, the Minds are anything but benevolent, especially those in Contact and SC. Sticking with PoG, there's an allusion to 'The Azadian Debacle' in Excession, so clearly it got a bit out of hand there. Excession itself is all about how the Minds are just as flawed morally as the humans they are supposedly so far above, and Look To Windward is partly about how Contact/SCs intervention on Chel obviously went disasterously wrong (as indeed do SCs meddlings in Use of Weapons)...
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
True, the Idirians were hamstrung by religion there.
but thats an early culture war-the sophistication of SC seems to be invested in making sure it never comes to war.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
I reckon the Culture would be in hot water if they were forced to go up against a civilisation like the...dammit...ambassador had a party on Tier in Excession...3 legged, like the Idirans...arses...anyway...
Bob_the_lost
Elsewhere
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
The homomda.
Fuck me I rule. That's 20 geek points to ME
Fuck me I rule. That's 20 geek points to ME
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