Cults and religions

[cesare]

The narrow question as to the difference between a cult and a religion is one that interests me not one bit. Moonies, Rastas, Mormons, Catholics, Muslims... There is nothing fundamentally different in my opinion. I would no more want a friend or relative of mine to become a Catholic or a Muslim than a Moonie or Scientologist or Bokononist for that matter. Whichever they have chosen, they will have abandoned rationality in favour of one or other comforting lie.

Are you seriously saying 'CofE or Church of Scientology, same thing, innit' ?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Are you seriously saying 'CofE or Church of Scientology, same thing, innit' ?

No. Are you saying that Christianity as understood by the CofE and Islam as understood in Iran are the same thing?

 

[cesare]

No. Are you saying that Christianity as understood by the CofE and Islam as understood in Iran are the same thing?

I haven't made any statement of the sort. You however, did. "There is nothing fundamentally different in my opinion".

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I haven't made any statement of the sort. You however, did. "There is nothing fundamentally different in my opinion".

Yep in the sense that they are all irrational belief systems that demand a greater or lesser obedience to a central dogma, and dividing into cult and religion is to use categories that obscure more than they illuminate. Hence these terms are not useful to me.

 

[cesare]

Yep in the sense that they are all irrational belief systems that demand a greater or lesser obedience to a central dogma, and dividing into cult and religion is to use categories that obscure more than they illuminate. Hence these terms are not useful to me.

I wasn't trying to divide them up into categories for the purpose of categorisation.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I wasn't trying to divide them up into categories for the purpose of categorisation.

I was specifically addressing the last sentence of your OP. It was an attempt to second-guess the opinion of certain posters. There's no need for that.

 

[cesare]

I was specifically addressing the last sentence of your OP. It was an attempt to second-guess the opinion of certain posters. There's no need for that.

I think you've neatly illustrated that there is a need for that.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The difference between a cult and a religion?

Sardines and pilchards, that's all.

 

[cesare]

The difference between a cult and a religion?

Sardines and pilchards, that's all.

Have you any interest in contributing to this:

Well it was a series of questions aimed at starting a discussion about the effect of cults/sects/religions/call them what you may upon society. Noticing trends. Looking at past effects. Which are the enduring ones that keep popping up in a different format. Which ones are connected and why. That sort of thing.

?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Have you any interest in contributing to this:



?

This is the philosophy forum, so the first thing that needs to be done is to define terms, is it not? You yourself asked for some definitions.

 

[Jorum]

I would say the main distinguishing features of a cult are.
-High prominence and reverence of a single person as the core of the organisation, who has unquestioned authority and whose word is infallible.
-Often a relatively "flat" organisational structure. Members usually have a fairly close link to leader.
-Usually an emphasis on secrecy. Aspects of beliefs or rituals hidden from public or even from low-ranking members.
-Closed societies in that members are discouraged or forbidden to have contact with anyone outside the cult including family.

Most major religions do not fall into all of these. In particular most religions are very open to the public as to what they believe and their is relatively little secrecy.
There is also little or no attempt to segregate members from outsiders.

 

[cesare]

I would say the main distinguishing features of a cult are.
-High prominence and reverence of a single person as the core of the organisation, who has unquestioned authority and whose word is infallible.
-Often a relatively "flat" organisational structure. Members usually have a fairly close link to leader.
-Usually an emphasis on secrecy. Aspects of beliefs or rituals hidden from public or even from low-ranking members.
-Closed societies in that members are discouraged or forbidden to have contact with anyone outside the cult including family.

Most major religions do not fall into all of these. In particular most religions are very open to the public as to what they believe and their is relatively little secrecy.
There is also little or no attempt to segregate members from outsiders.

Are there any particular religions that you were thinking about, in this respect?

 

[Jorum]

Are there any particular religions that you were thinking about, in this respect?

Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddihism, Judaism.....
As far as I am aware almost all the principles and sacred texts of these are open knowledge, with no particular attempt to restrict their visibility.

 

[mistere]

Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddihism, Judaism.....
As far as I am aware almost all the principles and sacred texts of these are open knowledge, with no particular attempt to restrict their visibility.

I can't speak for the other religions as I don't know but didn't Catholicism retain the Latin mass until the '60s? Surely that's an example of secret rituals as the congregation and outsiders often won't understand what the ritual is about. And the whole idea of needing a priest to intercede with God, rejected by Protestantism, Buddhism and, I think, by Islam, implies specialist and arcane knowledge. And then there's Papal infallibility...

 

[cesare]

Let's not forget Opus Dei either

 

[mistere]

I can't speak for the other religions as I don't know but didn't Catholicism retain the Latin mass until the '60s? Surely that's an example of secret rituals as the congregation and outsiders often won't understand what the ritual is about. And the whole idea of needing a priest to intercede with God, rejected by Protestantism, Buddhism and, I think, by Islam, implies specialist and arcane knowledge. And then there's Papal infallibility...

Tha should probably read that I can't speak about the other religions, I can't speak for any religion given that I don't belong to any!

 

[max_freakout]

america?

lol innit

 

[Dillinger4]

lol innit

You.

 

[max_freakout]

'either get it or you don't'.

more like 'either you take it or you don't'

 

[Dillinger4]

more like 'either you take it or you don't'

Those are not the words you were using before.

Your cult is fucking shit anyway.

 

[cesare]

As our (UK) political parties move further and further towards administration and management of the populace - what fills the ideological vacuum created?

 

[Dillinger4]

New age mysticism, for a start.

 

[cesare]

New age mysticism, for a start.

Quite.

What else though. 'New age' is kind of obvious and simplistic?

 

[Dillinger4]

Quite.

What else though. 'New age' is kind of obvious and simplistic?

I think I posted something really relevant to this fairly recently... one second.

 

[Dillinger4]

I probably did before but I cant find it.

Today, in a time of continuous rapid changes, from the "digital revolution" to the retreat of old social forms, thought is more than ever exposed to the temptation of "losing its nerve," of precociously abandoning the old conceptual coordinates. The media constantly bombard us with the need to abandon the "old paradigms": if we are to survive, we have to change our most fundamental notions of what constitutes a perosnal identity, society, enviroment, etc. New Age wisdom claims that we are entering a "post-human" era; postmodern political thought tells us that we are entering post-industrial societies, in which the old categories of labor, collectivity, class, etc are theoretical zombies, no longer applicable to the dynamics of modernization. The Third Way ideology and political practice is effectively THE model of this defeat, of this inability to recognize how the New is here to enable the Old to survive

have I posted that one somewhere else?

I actually have a load of stuff pretty relevant to what you are asking, the more I think about it. I will have a root through some of my books tomorrow.

 

[cesare]

I probably did before but I cant find it.



have I posted that one somewhere else?

I actually have a load of stuff pretty relevant to what you are asking, the more I think about it. I will have a root through some of my books tomorrow.

I don't remember seeing it, would be good if you could find it.

Commodification of religion/spirituality.

The spirituality industry. A pik n mix to suit the individual. I'll take a bit of buddhism, a tiny bit of Jesus, a sprinkling of hermes, a dab of zen and an overlay of tao - and hey presto! A religion tailored to me. Cos I is all important.

 

[Dillinger4]

Indeed.

But it is the 'accepting of anything' patterns of thought that really worry me. I will find something to expand further on that tomorrow though. My brain is tired tonight.

 

[cesare]

Indeed.

But it is the 'accepting of anything' patterns of thought that really worry me. I will find something to expand further on that tomorrow though. My brain is tired tonight.

Yep, tired too and resisting urge to spew thoughts over the thread Tomorrow then. In the meantime, are you familiar with Nikolas Rose?

 

[max_freakout]

really worry me

why are you really worried?

 

[Dillinger4]

why are you really worried?

Because your belief system makes you massively massively gullible to all kinds of absurd things.