Cuba...the news gets better and better..

[nino_savatte]

Cuban Americans have lived the American dream like countless other groups coming the the US. They have poured into the middle class, many have risen above the middle class.

They will want to export what works: Democracy - multi party elections, free enterprise, foreign investment. You know, all that stuff which makes our lives so good in the US and UK.

LOL!!!! What the fuck is the "American Dream", mears? It's a fiction an like all dreams it exists in the imagination. So-called Cuban Americans have been calling the tune for nigh on 50 years: they helped Jeb Bush to power and gave their votes to Dubya. But when it comes to Cuba, they dictate the terms....always. These folk were, more often than not, the criminal detritus of Cuba: fascists, militarists and criminal gangs all fled to Florida. That's nice company you're keeping chum.

 

[bluestreak]

mears don't care about their quality, he cares about the colour of their money.

 

[TeeJay]

...The possibility of the " Yanks" invading Cuba ( on what ever pretext) are so remote as to be only conjured up in the minds of the Miami diasopria or indeed the neo-cons..its a non-starter that simply won`t happen...

Surely that depends on what actually happens in Cuba?

If for example after Castro's death a civil war, coup, armed rebelllion/take-over happened (along with a massive outflow of refugees and so forth) - it could be very likely that US marines would be deployed within days. It might not be billed as an "invasion" of course - probably as a 'humanitarian intervention' or (unilateral) 'peacekeeping mission' (cf Haiti).

 

[TeeJay]

See Dougal your claim about "lack of freedom" is one made again and again on these boards and it simply does not stand up to scrutiny....can you give me an example?
And not one that starts with " freedom of the press" etc an actual example please.......

Prisoners of conscience: 71 longing for freedom
Amnesty International, 18 March 2005

"In March 2003, the Cuban government carried out the most severe crackdown on the dissident movement since the years following the 1959 revolution. Scores of dissidents were detained, seventy five of whom were subjected to summary trials and quickly sentenced to prison terms ranging from 26 months to 28 years. This crackdown came as a surprise to many observers who believed that Cuba might be moving towards a more open and tolerant approach towards opponents of the regime: the number of prisoners of conscience had declined and had been superseded by short term detentions, interrogations, summonses, threats, intimidation, eviction, loss of employment, restrictions on travel, house searches or physical or verbal acts of aggression. In addition, in April 2000 the Cuban Government began implementing a de facto moratorium on executions, which was broken in April 2003 with the execution of three men convicted of hijacking a tugboat to leave the island, in which no one was harmed.

The events of March/April 2003 signalled a step backwards for Cuba in terms of respect for human rights. The authorities tried to justify the crackdown by citing provocation and aggression from the United States. Amnesty International declared the 75 convicted dissidents to be prisoners of conscience(1) and called for their immediate and unconditional release, since the conduct for which dissidents were prosecuted was non-violent and fell within the parameters of the legitimate exercise of fundamental freedoms as guaranteed under international standards..."

full article here: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGAMR250022005

Also see Amnesty International 2005 report on Cuba: http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/cub-summary-eng

 

[TeeJay]

Freedom to travel

Freedom to organise politically.

Freedom to strike.

Freedom to have gay sex.

Thats just off the top of my head.

Freedom to choose your own government (and therefore to have a say in the laws governing you).

 

[TeeJay]

Democracy? Where you may vote for parties with identical policies of supporting big business and screwing the poor?

You can vote for the Green Party, or a whole list of others that are on UK and US ballot papers - or you can start your own political party and stand in all sorts of elections, or even as an independent.

You won't get thrown in jail for doing so either.

Have you ever spent time in a dictatorship where there is no democracy? Are you really claiming that you see no problem in people being persecuted for expressing opposing political viewpoints, belonging to radical political parties or standing in elections (that is - if there are elections in the first place)?

 

[nino_savatte]

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

Democracy = nice illusion.

 

[cemertyone]

Freedom to travel

Freedom to organise politically.

Freedom to strike.

Freedom to have gay sex.

Thats just off the top of my head.

I seem to remember that in the not to distant past the list that you have alluied to could equally have applied to the U.K.
Speaking as an Irish man.. many previous British governments have applied the very same restrictions that you list to people of my nationality.

1.Control orders on N-Ireland citizens preventing them from entering any other area of the UK. ( point one taken care of).
2. When Republicans where challenged by the Brits to show that they have a political mandate and agenda, the government promptly banned republican prisoners from the entire political process..( point 2 taken off).
3. " Freedom to strike " you mention..have we not had the same sort arguments from elements of the right-wing press..Firemen/nurses/essential workers etc. Its merly a question of degree.
4. the gay sex thing...i simply think your barking up the tree there son because as far as i remember the Cuban constitution prevents any such discrimination of any sexual form....and i seen many gay men while i was there.

 

[Bajie]

Does not make it alright though does it? in any country.

 

[cemertyone]

Does not make it alright though does it? in any country.

No your right it does not make any restrictions on personel or political freedoms right.
However, when you read Teejays post you would believe that Cuba is hell`s gate personified and our own little democratic entity in the UK is somehow some political and personal nirvaina. Every thing that he has mentioned in his post ( and he bases it on a report by Amnesty international no less) could equally be applied to either the USA or indeed the UK ( to one degree or another) so its a question of degree in that regard.
Strangely, in relation to Gay sex...i think it was not that long ago that the Met used to station its officers in the roofs of public toilets doing the same thing..so sticks and stones on that one i`m afraid.
He also mentions the state excution of three people convicted of hijacking craft to get to miami but what he fails to inform you about is the actions of the US embassy in Cuba who have been doing there utmost to prevent any improvement in the conditions of the Cuban people as a whole.

 

[cemertyone]

You won't get thrown in jail for doing so either.

Have you ever spent time in a dictatorship where there is no democracy? Are you really claiming that you see no problem in people being persecuted for expressing opposing political viewpoints, belonging to radical political parties or standing in elections (that is - if there are elections in the first place)?

I`ve lived most of my life in West Belfast living under a military dictatorship and i know its effects better than you could ever fucking believe son...have you actually lived under a military occuapition...answer NO.
Don`t presume to lecture those of us who have sunshine.
Teejay..Have you had your home smashed to pieces by troops because you and your family disagree with the ethos of the governing staus quo..answer NO. Well me and my family have had our home our family members and a lot more besides fucking wrecked more times than i can remember ( and by a democratic UK government no less).
As i mentioned to you in the previous post when the brits challenged us to see where the republican mandate lay ( and our people supported us by the hundreds of thousands) the Brits changed the game and prevented us from contesting the electoral process.
so on a quid per quo basis the very complaints that you lay at the feet of the Cuban Government at exactly those that your own political syatem inflicts on others....back to you darling

 

[fela fan]

You know, all that stuff which makes our lives so good in the US and UK.

I don't know how to spell a pig's snort, but that's what i want to write.

Some people may have it the way you describe, but very few. Money eh, your old curse mears. Plenty of wealthy americans i meet, and they are flabbergasted at the sight of an alternative life to the rampantly capitalist one they're caught up in back on their home soil.

 

[cemertyone]

I don't know how to spell a pig's snort, but that's what i want to write.

Some people may have it the way you describe, but very few. Money eh, your old curse mears. Plenty of wealthy americans i meet, and they are flabbergasted at the sight of an alternative life to the rampantly capitalist one they're caught up in back on their home soil.

Yeah they just don`t get it do they....like the pursuit of money ( and the so-called social staus thay you are supposed to enjoy as a consequence of that) is the be all and end all of human civilisation.

 

[TeeJay]

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

Democracy = nice illusion.

I'd be more interested if you actually said what your preferred political system is, rather than nit-pciked about the best system that is actually available in the real world, as if this nit-pciking amounted to a serious critique.

 

[fela fan]

Yeah they just don`t get it do they....like the pursuit of money ( and the so-called social staus thay you are supposed to enjoy as a consequence of that) is the be all and end all of human civilisation.

These sorts are all over the world mate, even here in thailand, at the top end of the wealth spectrum that is: the disease spreads easily. But of course america is the symbol and leader and spreader of rampant capitalism and the worship of the dollar.

But when i meet some of them (the yank versions), on a rare holiday, on a lake with just a houseboat of people for company, with mindblowing scenery, i hear about their monied life. These are young enough, mid-30s often, yet to be burnt out. The life they tell me about makes me shudder. The life they can see makes them flip out. They, to a T, start remapping their life.

Anyone who is in a headlong pursuit of money is missing out on life, so i have only sympathy for them really.

I'd love to get to cuba (and jamaica, a life-long dream), but i'm on the wrong side of the world, and can't see it happening any time soon. Damn shame!

 

[TeeJay]

However, when you read Teejays post you would believe that Cuba is hell`s gate personified and our own little democratic entity in the UK is somehow some political and personal nirvaina.

The US and UK are more free than Cuba, yes.

Amnesty International have criticisms of all three countries. I don't deny this.

Anyone can go and read their 2005 country reports here:

UK http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/gbr-summary-eng
USA http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/usa-summary-eng

 

[cemertyone]

I'd be more interested if you actually said what your preferred political system is, rather than nit-pciked about the best system that is actually available in the real world, as if this nit-pciking amounted to a serious critique.

So you prefare to ask questions rather than answer them.......

 

[fela fan]

I'd be more interested if you actually said what your preferred political system is, rather than nit-pciked about the best system that is actually available in the real world, as if this nit-pciking amounted to a serious critique.

It's more than possible he meant that democracy is the best system, and that it is an illusion that people have that we have one.

It seems patent to me that the US has a plutocracy, and perhaps the UK has a less blatant one. Dunno, not lived there for recently enough to know how it's changed since blair came to power.

 

[TeeJay]

I`ve lived most of my life in West Belfast living under a military dictatorship and i know its effects better than you could ever fucking believe son...have you actually lived under a military occuapition...answer NO.
Don`t presume to lecture those of us who have sunshine.

Hey fuckwit - I was directing the question at Dougal.

You don't actually know whre I have spent time over my lifetime so don't presume to answer questions on my fucking behalf, "sunshine".

Foir someone who claims to have suffered politically-motivated violence you seem very keen to inflcit the same on others.

I am still waiting for you to say whether you support the resumption of armed conflict in NI.

Or maybe you just like cheering on murderers from a safe distance living as you do in London and have no intention of putting yourself in harms' way?.

I feel very fortunate to have lived in the USA, UK and Japan - all democracies.

I also feel very fortunate to never have lived amongst of murdering filth who's idea of justice is using bombs and bullets to murder anyone who crosses them.

I can't however see what all this bullshit about violence in NI and the UK has got to do Cuba and you haven't explained how any wrongs elsewhere justify dictatorship in Cuba, nor have you set out any better system to replace those in the UK or the US.

I kind of suspect that you have some kind of far-left agenda that you are maybe to embarassed to stupid to voice on these forumsm, but I am willing to wait and see if you mange to finally articulate your political views (beyond murdering people and supporting dictatorships).

 

[TeeJay]

Plenty of wealthy americans i meet, and they are flabbergasted at the sight of an alternative life to the rampantly capitalist one they're caught up in back on their home soil.

Yeah because Thailand isn't a capitalist country ruled by the rich is it?

 

[fela fan]

The US and UK are more free than Cuba, yes.

I wonder on what basis you've managed to conclude this. I presume you actually mean the people, since a country cannot be free, since a country is just an entity.

Y'see, one of my indicators for a people being free is to live their lives free from the fear of violence.

I have many others, and where i live the people often seem freer than my country of birth, the UK. But this of course depends on the yardstick of measurement.

I suspect many cubans may feel freer than many britons.

The problem with the likes of british and american people is that they are under the illusion they have freedom to make choices. In reality they are subject to forces that make the choices for them (eg marketing, peer pressure, need to conform to society).

 

[TeeJay]

So you prefare to ask questions rather than answer them.......

Care to remind me which questions you want me to answer?

And while I do that you can answer mine about resuming political violence in NI (carried over from multiple previous threads).

 

[Lock&Light]

I presume you actually mean the people, since a country cannot be free, since a country is just an entity.

It's this sort of pedantic nonsense, fela, which you so much enjoy inflicting on us, that makes your postings such a trial to read.

 

[fela fan]

Yeah because Thailand isn't a capitalist country ruled by the rich is it?

But if NI has nothing to do with this thread, then why has thailand?

Every country's ruled by the rich, where have you been?

But the bit of thailand they meet is nothing to do with capitalism, or the lifestyle of the rich. And the people they meet when they get here are poles away from the types they mix with in their workplaces back in the US.

You didn't want cemerytone to presume upon you, yet you frequently do that to me.

Not a surprise, it happens a lot here.

 

[Dougal]

I seem to remember that in the not to distant past the list that you have alluied to could equally have applied to the U.K.
Speaking as an Irish man.. many previous British governments have applied the very same restrictions that you list to people of my nationality.

1.Control orders on N-Ireland citizens preventing them from entering any other area of the UK. ( point one taken care of).
2. When Republicans where challenged by the Brits to show that they have a political mandate and agenda, the government promptly banned republican prisoners from the entire political process..( point 2 taken off).
3. " Freedom to strike " you mention..have we not had the same sort arguments from elements of the right-wing press..Firemen/nurses/essential workers etc. Its merly a question of degree.
4. the gay sex thing...i simply think your barking up the tree there son because as far as i remember the Cuban constitution prevents any such discrimination of any sexual form....and i seen many gay men while i was there.

I support neither the USA model nor that of Cuba just to be clear. I think it's silly to stick up for Cuba on the grounds that many of the abuses that happen there happen in the UK. An abuse is an abuse is an abuse.

All that said, my sympathies are definately with the Cuban communists rather than the USa. I just would not want to live in either.

 

[fela fan]

It's this sort of pedantic nonsense, fela, which you so much enjoy inflicting on us, that makes your postings such a trial to read.

Stop reading the fuckers then.

And in any case, i can remember you telling me how you enjoyed reading my posts, if not the opinions i display.

Something changed in you?

 

[TeeJay]

I wonder on what basis you've managed to conclude this.

Have you read the Amnesty International links I posted?

You could also try re-reading my previous posts.

I don't really want to waste much more time on your or cemertyone's bullshit - a mistake I have made before and learnt from.

I'll come back tommorrow.

 

[fela fan]

Care to remind me which questions you want me to answer?

And while I do that you can answer mine about resuming political violence in NI (carried over from multiple previous threads).

No, you just said that it had nothing to do with cuba, and this thread is about cuba.

So which way do you want it hypocrite?

 

[cemertyone]

The US and UK are more free than Cuba, yes.

Amnesty International have criticisms of all three countries. I don't deny this.

Anyone can go and read their 2005 country reports here:

UK http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/gbr-summary-eng
USA http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/usa-summary-eng

I`m curious about your belief that the U.K.and the U.S. " Are more free than Cuba" in what respect do you say that?
You mention the A.I. report on Cuba....of course being slightly younger than me you might have forgotten that the only European country ever to be convicted at the E.C.H.R. for inflicting torture on its on citizens was...yeah you guessed it the U.K.
You might also be aware that the U.K. locks up more of its citizens ( per head of pop) than Cuba ever could in relation to political motivated offences.
And as for State terrorism well i guess the brits could teach other nations a thing or two about that...they have had 300 years in Ireland to practice and i dont believe that it was the Cubans who introduced to the world the concept of the concentration camp...that was a british introduction and i have not seen that many in cuba when i was there....i`m open to you changing my mind though.

 

[fela fan]

Have you read the Amnesty International links I posted?

You could also try re-reading my previous posts.

I don't really want to waste much more time on your or cemertyone's bullshit - a mistake I have made before and learnt from.

I'll come back tommorrow.

There are many countries that amnesty report on.

The biggest abusers of life on this planet are the US, followed by the UK.

Cuba and castro are benign in comparison.