Fedayn
Well-Known Member
Yup
Cruddas: PR only way to stop BNP
- Thread starter articul8
- Start date
Yup
I used to think PR would be a way forward that allowed the break up of the labourtory hegemony and facilitated the growth of a left alternative.
However, the way things appear to be going, the niceties of electoral systems may very soon be the least of our worries.....
As for PR letting the BNP get representation - well barring some major cock-ups on their behalf (possible) or a major state psy-op (more than possible, given the current proclivities of the security establishment and what we now know about their past behaviour as regards both far left and right?) I think unfortunately we are likely to see the first BNP MEP(s?) in June - I hope I'm wrong.
Horse, stable door, etc.
However, the way things appear to be going, the niceties of electoral systems may very soon be the least of our worries.....
As for PR letting the BNP get representation - well barring some major cock-ups on their behalf (possible) or a major state psy-op (more than possible, given the current proclivities of the security establishment and what we now know about their past behaviour as regards both far left and right?) I think unfortunately we are likely to see the first BNP MEP(s?) in June - I hope I'm wrong.
Horse, stable door, etc.
lewislewis
Lumumba Cymru
The English equivalent would be the Greens! We won't co-operate with nutters or xenophobes.
The FPTP system guarantees that only two parties can win. It is a profoundly unfair system. PR has worked where it has been used in the UK. Basing the UK's electoral system on whether the BNP will get a handful of MPs is ridiculous. And I actively oppose them. If the political conditions were different, a far-left party could just as likely make progress under a PR system (the SSP anyone?). Scotland wouldn't have been able to ditch New Labour in 07 if it wasn't for the SSP's gains in 03.
STV still allows a local constituency link and is the most advanced form of PR.
The AMS (Additional Member System) also allows constituency members as well as regional members.
It was PR which gave us Barnbrook in the GLA. Mind you it was fun seeing him get there, trying to organise a 'Nuremburg Lite' rally at the GLA which nobody turned up to though
There is a positive side to this. It may well boost softer right alternatives to the BNP in local authorities who are trashed by corrupt NL admins. It might make a Tory vote in somewhere like Newham actually count rather than being a wasted vote as it is at the moment. IMO its the lack of percieved choice and the feeling that votes for anyone other than NL in these dodgy boroughs that is feeding the resentment about voicelessness which is in some cases turning into BNP election successes.
No. It was the people who voted for him. You can't just keep tinkering with the voting system to silence people, and pretend you're dealing with the cause not the symptoms.
(FYI - I wouldn't wipe my arse on the BNP, but I would like to see a rainbow of green/red leftist parties, even some UKIP/Libetartian style right wingers liven up Westminster a bit.)
I agree but it was a PR system that made those votes count. I'd also like to see leftist and other parties in the commons just not in a position of power. They and others pov should be heard even if its bollocks. My arse is too sensitive for t he BNP so I'd wipe my feet on them instead.
i know what you're getting at here but for the record i don't think this is happening anywhere in Europe right now. in France the main elections are run like the Presidentials, in two stages although without a guarenteed run-off, anyone who gets over 20-25% goes through to the run off.
in Germany the far right haven't managed to get above the 5% needed anywhere i don't think.
i think the FN in France got into parliament at some point but thats going back a while now, possibly during an earlier system.
not sure how Austria works but i imagine Haider would have won seats outright in Carthinia anyway.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Belusconi's Alliance with the Italian fascsists picked up 37% in the Chamber of Deputies election and 38% in the Seanate election last year. Austrai ahd two far right parties on 1/3 fo the vote each as well as, as you say running whole regions already. Vlaams Belang got 12% in the 2007 Chamber of Representatives and same in the senate (though it appears to be on a downward trend nationally) NPD in germany nowhere in federal elctions, but on city councils and strong in some regions - i.e circa 10% vote in Saxony for state legislature. Wilders lot got 6% in Netherlands DPP/DFP on 14% in Denmark. So yes, it's certainly more of a mixed bag than my post suggested. I haven't even looked at the mess of eastern europe or the balkan though - confusing enough working out whose what with these ones.
aye, i got to about Hungary and thought better of it myself ...
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
Nor should there be, given Cruddas' past - as McDonnell says (the letter is here in case anyone hasnt seen it).
As for Labour generally, I dont know if anyone else saw this frankly twattish posturing from their Chief Whip... its frankly mindboggling how blatant their contempt for their own MPs is. "Lazy bastards not voting with us!"
One of the most noticeable things about the intellectual underpinnings of NL, such as it is, is the number of 'tame academics' who seem to come up with exactly what the people who commissioned the research require, (IE the Govt) such as the Gregg Report, the Nottingham research on rebel M.p's mentioned by Agri, there is even a 'sick note' research team at liverpool Uni , which has helped launch the 'Well Note' and of course the real lap dogs of academia, The IPPR.
Meltingpot
Living in our pools we soon forget about the sea
What's obvious is that it makes no sense to allow politicians to set the rules under which they operate. You don't let snooker players decide which of the balls on the table counts for the most points just when they're lining up a shot, and you shouldn't ask politicians to vote for a system which doesn't give them an advantage.
I thought Roy Jenkins's proposals in the late 90's made a lot of sense, but they didn't suit New Labour so they were dropped.
I thought Roy Jenkins's proposals in the late 90's made a lot of sense, but they didn't suit New Labour so they were dropped.
19sixtysix
Bring me sunshine
The reason I want PR is so that one group in power can not be guaranteed a rubber stamp in parliament and so can not easily impose shit on the rest of us.
The Scottish parliament has not had a majority one party government and the country is better for it. Laws have to be developed with more talking than shouting. Its so much more grown up. I'm not saying there won't be shouting but the stupid ideas Poll Tax, ID cards always come from power happy politicians.
The Scottish parliament has not had a majority one party government and the country is better for it. Laws have to be developed with more talking than shouting. Its so much more grown up. I'm not saying there won't be shouting but the stupid ideas Poll Tax, ID cards always come from power happy politicians.
lewislewis
Lumumba Cymru
All votes should count even ones for shitty parties.
The left parties on the continent have also done better through PR so it can work both ways.
lewislewis
Lumumba Cymru
I have to agree with this. The more protagonists involved in the process, the less easy it is to railroad through something that will be damaging.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
IMHO we would get far, far more leftist MPs (and far more effective scrutiny of Government anyway) if there was a complete ban on centrally-dictated lists of potential candidates, and instead ensured that only local parties could decide who their candidate would be.
The problem with modern politics is largely because of centrally controlled parties and their ability to influence individual MPs, not because every vote doesnt count after the election is over. MPs need to be independent, to only be afraid of the electorate, and not to be exposed to undue influences such as from the whips office or central organizations agitating to have popular local MPs forced out (such as with Kate Hoey, discussed here).
All PR would do would entrench the current parties in the system, and create more than a few BNP MPs.
lewislewis
Lumumba Cymru
What are you basing this on? All the places in the UK where PR has been used (although in London a BNP member got in) have enabled a 'different' politics to the entrenched Westminster system.
I agree with your points against central party lists. Decentralist parties like Plaid Cymru & the Green party choose their candidates democratically.
BNP MPs getting in depend on whether people vote for them in sufficient numbers, just like any other party. Our electoral system can't be shaped by fear of one party, they should be defeated no matter what the electoral system is.
well crudas voted in favour of the welfare reform bill which will be more ammo for the far right so anything that piece of shit has to say about stoppin gthe bnp is worthless
lewislewis
Lumumba Cymru
Ok then, let's not support Proportional Representation because Jon Cruddas (elected under first past the post) supports welfare reform. He isn't the only person to have called for PR. It is the normal electoral system in Europe.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
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