Crossing picket lines

[poster342002]

Markyd,

What would you say about a situation where the majority of a workforce scabbed on a strike?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I agrre with the principal here. Crossing a picket line makes the bosses laugh. I have never crossed one and never will no matter what!

In an ideal world that would be a laudable attitude but this is not an ideal world. One thing you have to think of now is that someone who scabs may be doing it not just to survive but advance their career and their image with managment - this is especially true with the petty-bosses like immediate line managment.

Anbody who does is failing their co-workers in my opinion.

Most people don't give a toss about their co workers they are just hanging on by their fingernails and are 2 paychecks away from bankruptcy.

 

[Markyd]

Markyd,

What would you say about a situation where the majority of a workforce scabbed on a strike?

How can that happen any strike must by law be voted on. So is there a situation where the stike is voted for then they change there minds?

I think I'm going to have to have a bit more info. had this happened in your experience?

Why was the strike called then is my first q though

 

[badnewswade]

There is a world of difference between being a copper or being a grass for non antisocial and non violent offence and crossing a picket line.

Actually I don't think there's anything that wrong with being a copper and certainly don't lump them together with grasses and scabs. I have met some decent cops and I suppose we need them to catch crims, even though they fuck up a lot and often take sides (well they are government employees, what do you expect?).

Sorry if that didn't come out in my post.

 

[poster342002]

Freaky to see some of the people upthread coming out with complicated justifications for scabbing. Bad conciences perhaps?

Personally I have rarely had the chance to work and had a tough life and need money - but I would never even think of crapping on my fellows like that. Perhaps that's how the scab justifies himself - they think they are better than everyone else and don't have to follow the rules of decent behaviour. I've always thought of them either as the sort of people who play loud music at 3 AM, then get all pissed off when you call the cops, or who deal drugs on street corners, or the sort of person who bought their council house and voted Tory, and who always work far too hard, raising the expectations of the boss and causing problems for others, thinking they were smart when all they were doing was betraying their class.

Bollocks to scabbing and bollocks to excuses for scabbing. If you don't agree with the strike then go through proper channels- striking is one of precious few ways that people can make their employers take them seriously. If you take that away you are hurting the very basis of democratic society- you are as Jack London says, a traitor to your country as well as yourself, and your co-workers. And everything else.

I actually agree with you - I just suggest you try teling that to people in a workplace where the vast majority scab on strike days. The argument loses is potency when you're arguing from a positon of minority.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Union is the word here. You are in the union for solidarity. One for all and all for one etc. Without unity of action a trade union is worthless. Even if you disagree.

Bollocks. What about when you have a situation as with the TGWU at Fords in Dagenham where the union branch backed a 'fathers and sons' policy for all the best jobs t hereby excluding ethnic minority applicants.

If you can't live with that get out of the union. Simple as in my book. You can't have the benfits of Tu membership without stepping up to the line when you're needed.

As I said before I would love the Nov 04 strike to have been a success the same as I hope yesterdays strike is a success but a) there is no culture of solidarity in the workplace now and b) you have to let people follow their concensies over strike action there is no way I would have backed a racist dispute like the TGWU one at Fords.

 

[poster342002]

How can that happen any strike must by law be voted on. So is there a situation where the stike is voted for then they change there minds?

I think I'm going to have to have a bit more info. had this happened in your experience?

Why was the strike called then is my first q though

What happens is that a slender majority of members bother to return their strike ballot. Of that slender majority, an even smaller majority vote "YES" to the action. Of that slender majority, most bottle out on the day itself. Et Voila! A strike of fuck-all participants!

This has been my experience of just about every strike I've ever been invovled with. I've not scabbed, but have exhausted myself to no avail trying to get anybody else not to scab.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I actually agree with you - I just suggest you try teling that to people in a workplace where the vast majority scab on strike days. The argument loses is potency when you're arguing from a positon of minority.

Thats the point in my workplace those who struck (myself included) were very much in the minority.

 

[badnewswade]

In an ideal world that would be a laudable attitude but this is not an ideal world. One thing you have to think of now is that someone who scabs may be doing it not just to survive but advance their career and their image with managment - this is especially true with the petty-bosses like immediate line managment.

Yes, that's right, they are arselicking scum who do it to suck up to management. In other words, traitors.

Most people don't give a toss about their co workers they are just hanging on by their fingernails and are 2 paychecks away from bankruptcy.

If that's the case, then it's thanks to scabs like them that employment conditions are so crappy.

Do you see what I mean? A scab undermines other people's pay and conditions, and their jobs themselves, by neutralising their right to strike for better pay and conditions.

Have a look at this - It's been mentioned before:

To strike at a man's food and shelter is to strike at his life; and in a society organized on a tooth-and-nail basis, such an act, performed though it may be under the guise of generosity, is none the less menacing and terrible.

It is for this reason that a laborer is so fiercely hostile to another laborer who offers to work for less pay or longer hours. To hold his place, (which is to live), he must offset this offer by another equally liberal, which is equivalent to giving away somewhat from the food and shelter he enjoys. To sell his day's work for $2, instead of $2.50, means that he, his wife, and his children will not have so good a roof over their heads, so warm clothes on their backs, so substantial food in their stomachs. Meat will be bought less frequently and it will be tougher and less nutritious, stout new shoes will go less often on the children's feet, and disease and death will be more imminent in a cheaper house and neighborhood.

Thus the generous laborer, giving more of a day's work for less return (measured in terms of food and shelter), threatens the life of his less generous brother laborer, and at the best, if he does not destroy that life, he diminishes it. Whereupon the less generous laborer looks upon him as an enemy, and, as men are inclined to do in a tooth-and-nail society, he tries to kill the man who is trying to kill him.

http://london.sonoma.edu/Writings/WarOfTheClasses/scab.html

But of course, being a decent human being is outdated, just like human rights and the geneva convention are "outdated".

About time people learned about their history, not to mention their present. Look at the French - they stand up to the bosses and the government and they win every time. Look at us - we sit there and take that shit.

Of course if you want to live in third world conditions and enjoy a perfect free market you can always go to Somalia.

 

[badnewswade]

I actually agree with you - I just suggest you try teling that to people in a workplace where the vast majority scab on strike days. The argument loses is potency when you're arguing from a positon of minority.

Sorry - hadn't read that post when I posted. I can see you're one of the good guys.

 

[Markyd]

In an ideal world that would be a laudable attitude but this is not an ideal world. One thing you have to think of now is that someone who scabs may be doing it not just to survive but advance their career and their image with managment - this is especially true with the petty-bosses like immediate line managment.


Most people don't give a toss about their co workers they are just hanging on by their fingernails and are 2 paychecks away from bankruptcy.

I disagree principals exist and you have to live by them otherwiase whats the point in having them. There have been times when I have been right on my uppers financially and I still wouldn't cross a picket line!

It's not the co-workers that I'm talking about. But standing united everyone gains. If peolpe are willing to cross a picket line and take the pay rises the union negotiates then whats the point!

 

[Groucho]

What happens is that a slender majority of members bother to return their strike ballot. Of that slender majority, an even smaller majority vote "YES" to the action. Of that slender majority, most bottle out on the day itself. Et Voila! A strike of fuck-all participants!

This has been my experience of just about every strike I've ever been invovled with. I've not scabbed, but have exhausted myself to no avail trying to get anybody else not to scab.

In the majority of cases more people strike on the day than vote in the ballot.

A recent ballot in the Passport Agency saw a 55% turn out. Just over 81% voted for the strike. A recent meeting saw 100% support. I would not be surprised if on the day 80 - 90% of union members strike.

The issue incidentally is that their annual pay award was due last August. They have still not received an offer or been able to enter negotiations about the 2005 pay increase! If it had been my area we would have balloted way before now!

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Yes, that's right, they are arselicking scum who do it to suck up to management. In other words, traitors.



If that's the case, then it's thanks to scabs like them that employment conditions are so crappy.

Or is it because employment legislation means that any attempt to fight for better conditions will be neutralised by the employer? There are plenty of Poles and Czechs who can and will do the jobs of strikers and this is what workers know and employers know.

Do you see what I mean? A scab undermines other people's pay and conditions, and their jobs themselves, by neutralising their right to strike for better pay and conditions.

You don't seem to understand that the era of mass solidarity is over and dead to all intents in purposes. We need to move forward not with macho posturing and Jack London quotes but to build some form of new solidarity. You've got to start with young workers as these are the ones most likely to be impressed by a pay rise from the guv'nor for working during a strike. Education is now nothing to do with knowledge and everything to do with
'getting on' and getting the few lucky making enough money to flash the bling and service their credit card debt.

Have a look at this - It's been mentioned before:



http://london.sonoma.edu/Writings/WarOfTheClasses/scab.html

Very powerful but I don't think that it is relevant to todays workplace.

But of course, being a decent human being is outdated, just like human rights and the geneva convention are "outdated".

About time people learned about their history, not to mention their present. Look at the French - they stand up to the bosses and the government and they win every time. Look at us - we sit there and take that shit.

Agree with that. The problem is for the majority of people in this country history is 'not relevant' and 'boring' when compared to the masses of digital distractions around them.

Of course if you want to live in third world conditions and enjoy a perfect free market you can always go to Somalia.

or America for a lot of their people.


BTW the only time I've crossed a picket line is when I've been self employed and in a position where there is no one to tell me what to do apart from the bank.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

It's not the co-workers that I'm talking about. But standing united everyone gains. If peolpe are willing to cross a picket line and take the pay rises the union negotiates then whats the point!

Thats what happens at our place

 

[spring-peeper]

I have never had good experiences with unions. Right now, they have had my husbands pay cut by 25%.

Yes, I cross picket lines. Yes, my husband has worked as a scab. Yes, we have taken legal action against the union - lost - and are going back again in an attempt to allow him out of the union.

 

[Groucho]

You don't seem to understand that the era of mass solidarity is over and dead to all intents in purposes.

Writing that the day after the biggest strike in Britain since 1926 (the biggest ever number of women on strike) and mass strikes in France is just a tiny bit daft innit?

11 unions took united action yesterday.

 

[laptop]

There are plenty of Poles and Czechs who can and will do the jobs of strikers and this is what workers know and employers know.

Au contraire, I wouldn't be surprised if some workplaces are soon holding union meetings in Polish with Czech and English subtitles...

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Writing that the day after the biggest strike in Britain since 1926 (the biggest ever number of women on strike) and mass strikes in France is just a tiny bit daft innit?

11 unions took united action yesterday.

And that is great but thats just in one field of employment - the public sector. Where are the private sector workers coming out over the rape of their pension funds by managment and shareholders? They've got a lot to lose as well but seem to be doing nothing because if they do something they will lose thier jobs as well.

 

[Markyd]

Thats what happens at our place

and mine!!!

But thats my opinoin of them on that issue. And they know it.

 

[STFC]

Yes, that's right, they are arselicking scum who do it to suck up to management. In other words, traitors.

Shame on people for trying to further their careers! If I had a family to support, my loyalty would be to them, not the blokes I work with.

 

[Markyd]

Shame on people for trying to further their careers! If I had a family to support, my loyalty would be to them, not the blokes I work with.

Thats the attitude the bosses want- Divide and conquer. Fuck them give me more!

Same fuckers as drive 4x4's in London to protect their children but couldn't give a shit about other peoples!

 

[poster342002]

Writing that the day after the biggest strike in Britain since 1926 (the biggest ever number of women on strike) and mass strikes in France is just a tiny bit daft innit?

11 unions took united action yesterday.

Groucho - you're in danger of overdoing the hyperbole. The strikes in Britain do not compare with those France. Indeed, they are pathetic by comparison. How many people in London were even aware there was any sort of strike going on yesterday? In Paris, you probably couldn't miss it.

 

[Markyd]

Groucho - you're in danger of overdoing the hyperbole. The strikes in Britain do not compare with those France. Indeed, they are pathetic by comparison. How many people in London were even aware there was any sort of strike going on yesterday? In Paris, you probably couldn't miss it.

Oh right so its the people in London who count!
Ask the people in liverpool and the 20 mile tailbacks!!

Or the ones in Newcastle.

Doesn't matter because the people in london didn't know

 

[poster342002]

Where are the private sector workers coming out over the rape of their pension funds by managment and shareholders?

Indeed! Levels of solidarity are already piss-poor in the public sector - in the private sector they're pretty much non-existant.

 

[mutley]

Groucho - you're in danger of overdoing the hyperbole. The strikes in Britain do not compare with those France. Indeed, they are pathetic by comparison. How many people in London were even aware there was any sort of strike going on yesterday? In Paris, you probably couldn't miss it.

He wasn't, he was saying that there was the biggest strike in the UK since whenever, and there were mass strikes in France. Both statements true.

France clearly had a strike that was a lot bigger, and street mobilisations that were many many times bigger.

Where were the biggest demos yesterday? I reckon 1000 in Brum at peak (about 12.30)

 

[poster342002]

Oh right so its the people in London who count!
Ask the people in liverpool and the 20 mile tailbacks!!

Or the ones in Newcastle.

Doesn't matter because the people in london didn't know

I didn't say that. I was merely comparing each capital city for the sake of the argument of comparison. The point I'm making is that in France strikes still appear to have an effect and are widely participated in to the degree that you can't help but notice a strike is taking place. The same cannot be said for the UK.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Oh right so its the people in London who count!
Ask the people in liverpool and the 20 mile tailbacks!!

Or the ones in Newcastle.

Doesn't matter because the people in london didn't know

Agreed that the strikes in the regions were effective but FFS people in Dagenham still put their bins out yesterday. They hadn't even HEARD that there was a strike

The fact that this hasn't impacted on the general conciousness of the capital is a worry. The fact that it hasn't impacted the capital in general allows Blair to be able to spin this strike as 'a damp squib' The only impact I could see was some wanker shouting 'vote tory - get rid of labour lefties' on the platform of St Jame's park station

 

[subversplat]

Would it be completly morally abhorrent to refuse to cross a picket even to save someone from death/horrific injury? Surely a fatality on the case would be quite a strong weapon for the union...

Blimey I sound quite evil thinking like that

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Would it be completly morally abhorrent to refuse to cross a picket even to save someone from death/horrific injury? Surely a fatality on the case would be quite a strong weapon for the union...

Blimey I sound quite evil thinking like that

You can bet your bottom dollar that something like this would be exploited for all it's worth by scum like Digby Jones and the right wing press. A fatality because of a picket line would be just what they want for propaganda.

 

[diond]

I'll tell you when it's right to cross the picket line. When I feel that it's right. Picketers have no right to stop me from crossing their 'line' and prevent me from working if I wish to.
Try and prevent me from MY right to earn MY living, and you get a punch in the face. Easy.