Cross River Tram

[HackneyE9]

http://www.nationalschool.gov.uk/policyhub/news_item/trams_pteg.asp

Tram beats the bus for getting people out of their cars
On 23 February 2005, the Passenger Transport Executive Group (PTEG) published a report (What light rail can do for cities) which finds that New light rail schemes are better at attracting motorists and cutting congestion than improvements to bus services. It reviews the record of the seven operational UK light rail schemes and finds that UK light rail is delivering on ridership, regeneration and modal shift. The report's findings include:

Typically, light rail achieves six times the level of traffic reduction achieved by major improvements to bus services. Around 20% of rush hour light rail users have switched from the car - compared with between 4% and 6.5% for bus improvement schemes. At the weekends, up to 50% of light rail passengers previously travelled by car

 

[Dan U]

lol

i live in croydon, there are trams, i havent seen any evidence of reduced traffic.
hence asking if there was any evidence.

I believe the people who are using trams in croydon are people who would already be using public transport or trains not cars so how can you justify taking car road space away for trams if car drivers aren't going to use them.

iirc when the trams opened in Croydon the car parks took a drop in usage for a number of years, especially at weekends and the long stay car parks round east croydon.

that's anecdotal though from my time working for a big car parking company.

when the Leeds tram was being mooted our assumptions were for a drop in long stay week day parking and short stay shopper parking as well in Leeds city centre car parks.

 

[PacificOcean]

http://www.nationalschool.gov.uk/policyhub/news_item/trams_pteg.asp

Tram beats the bus for getting people out of their cars
On 23 February 2005, the Passenger Transport Executive Group (PTEG) published a report (What light rail can do for cities) which finds that New light rail schemes are better at attracting motorists and cutting congestion than improvements to bus services. It reviews the record of the seven operational UK light rail schemes and finds that UK light rail is delivering on ridership, regeneration and modal shift. The report's findings include:

Typically, light rail achieves six times the level of traffic reduction achieved by major improvements to bus services. Around 20% of rush hour light rail users have switched from the car - compared with between 4% and 6.5% for bus improvement schemes. At the weekends, up to 50% of light rail passengers previously travelled by car

This is must be a study of somewhere that doesn't have the tube. Of course people would use a tram over a bus service.

Like I said, if a tube line can't get people out of their cars then a slower tram won't either.

 

[se5]

I raised these kind of issues when the tram was originally being discussed and our GLA member Valerie Shawcross pointed to TfL projections for the area which showed that demand was going to increase greatly over the next 20 years (even on the Brixton Road to Kennington bit which is currently reasonably served by tube) and so the tram was a means of planning ahead and ensuring that the transport system was able to cope with future demand. The other 'branch' of the tram route would have gone down Walworth Road and then on to North Camberwell and Peckham which currently are heavily dependent on buses. Long-term also the trams would have linked up with the Croydon system.

 

[Callie]

I have found the trams to be much better than buses for journeys such as Croydon to Wimbledon...that was virtually impossible before the trams arrived.

Buses would be great if they could have bus lanes everywhere they go but i don't think that is possible.

Does anyone know if there have there ever been plans to do a loop system of tram/tube type transport around the suburbs of London, a bit like the M25? I think that would be useful

 

[PacificOcean]

Does anyone know if there have there ever been plans to do a loop system of tram/tube type transport around the suburbs of London, a bit like the M25? I think that would be useful

The thinking is that The London Overground is going to all link together to form an orbital line outside Central London.

Not really the suburbs though.

 

[Crispy]

Does anyone know if there have there ever been plans to do a loop system of tram/tube type transport around the suburbs of London, a bit like the M25? I think that would be useful

Useful, but probably nowhere near the passenger numbers needed to make it viable as a rail scheme.

 

[Gramsci]

No such luck - that project (which appears to deliver the "public transport benefits" of actually delaying every bus route to Brixton Hill, Streatham, Tulse Hill and Norwood) continues to have a charmed life.



TfL Business Plan 2009-10 to 2017-18

Yes the Council are still making a big song and dance about it.Im still waiting for Future Brixton masterplan.

From what people have said here a tram may be a good idea.The trouble with buses is that even with bus lanes they get held up once they hit the West End.Also I find for long journeys buses unpleasant as I get a bit car sick with all the stopping and braking.The tube is much smoother.If future projections are right trams may be needed.Also in 20 years time we may have to start to move away from individual car ownership and more use of greener public transport.Also I dont see why people shouldnt use car clubs.A more useful central square could hire and maintain electric and greener vehicles.There are a few electric charging area in C London

 

[extra dry]

they have tram, tube and buses in the center of Prague and they are nearly always full of people during the day. A tram is usually cheaper than the bus, and it is greener in the fact that it is not pumping out exhaust fumes all day.

 

[honto]

I quite liked the idea of a tram from Brixton to Waterloo - when I was doing nightschool near Waterloo it used to generally take me 3 tubes to get there (change at Stockwell then almost always change at Kennington too). Bus was too slow in rush hour traffic when I needed to be at school for 6.30pm. So even though its close and covered by the tube it is strangely inconvenient to get from Brixton to Waterloo.

 

[g force]

they have tram, tube and buses in the center of Prague and they are nearly always full of people during the day. A tram is usually cheaper than the bus, and it is greener in the fact that it is not pumping out exhaust fumes all day.

The 'green' argument for trams is erroneus however given the materials and construction of such a large project. And how/where they source the electricity.

 

[Crispy]

IIRC, the energy use per vehicle kilometer is roughly matched between trams and buses (trams are heavier but have much lower rolling friction). Trams then have the added bonus of having a higher capacity so the energy/passengerkm is lower than buses. Then there's the reliability and punctuality benefits of trams. The only disadvantage of the tram is the larger capital outlay.

 

[Winot]

And as someone alluded to earlier there is a still perception problem with buses (only for young people and failures according to Maggie) which isn't the case with trams. Basically knobbers in cars think they're more like trains than buses and so are more likely to switch to them.

 

[Ol Nick]

And as someone alluded to earlier there is a still perception problem with buses (only for young people and failures according to Maggie) which isn't the case with trams. Basically knobbers in cars think they're more like trains than buses and so are more likely to switch to them.

And then U75 will complain loudly about the Clapham yuppies clogging up their trams.

 

[Isambard]

You can combine street running and seperated grade so that you get the best of both worlds with trams with less capital investment.
It shouldn't be a replacement thought for tunelling where it is approriate.

This has NOTHING to do with "Bonkers Boris", "Seeing Sense",
rather to do with NIMYism and a (conservative) (UK) adversion to long term capital invetment in transport infrastructure.

 

[_pH_]

From an article (interview with Kia Colbeck, Head of Environment and Sustainability, Croydon Council) in 'OnTrack', Southern Railway's mag:

[The trams] regularly carry more thna 50,000 passengers per day, which significantly cuts traffic congestion. As a direct result of the trams, 7,028 vehicles have been removed from the road network according to a recent study of transport supply and demand

(not the best source, but i read it and it reminded me of this thread )

 

[Crispy]

Although this particular scheme was not intended to replace car journeys, but provide extra capacity alongside existing public transport that is close to capacity.

 

[Crispy]

A glimmer of hope:

http://www.southlondon-today.co.uk/...ne=Cross Riv<br />er Tram hope from Boris aid

...at a committee meeting, as part of the State of London debate on Saturday, Kulveer Ranger, the Mayor’s director of transport policy, told the audience Mr Johnson was “keen to see the CRT going forward and it would be top of his list” when he next asked the Government for funding.

(PS 2 Threads merged)

 

[toblerone3]

A glimmer of hope:

http://www.southlondon-today.co.uk/...ne=Cross Riv<br />er Tram hope from Boris aid



(PS 2 Threads merged)

 

[Oswaldtwistle]

And as someone alluded to earlier there is a still perception problem with buses (only for young people and failures according to Maggie) which isn't the case with trams. Basically knobbers in cars think they're more like trains than buses and so are more likely to switch to them.

This has some truth in it. However frequency of service is important too. I get a 5 minute frequency of bus service to the town centre. That is a really viable alternative to the car and I've never seen a bus less than half full during the day. By contrast Manchester's tram service is less frequent in places (12 minutes IIRC)


I think what most people want is the ability to go where they want when they want, rather than worrying about the how. Unfortunately that all too often means a car.

 

[London_Calling]

Poor old Boris needs a legacy project, has he got one yet?

 

[Mr T]

Poor old Boris needs a legacy project, has he got one yet?

bike hire!

(never mind that the others would have done it too)

 

[London_Calling]

That's the point; everything he's proposed is leftover from Ken's era.

 

[flash]

This just won't happen for so many reasons (the most obvious one being that there is no cash to go around - e.g. asking the government is like asking the man on the street at the moment for cash). When he can't even get rid of the bendy buses in 18 months, let alone set up a Mayor's Transport Strategy (not due until after Xmas - the document released last year was like a vague collection of "nice" ideas) you really do have to ask what he's going to achieve.