Crna Gora - Independence for Montenegro, the end of Yugoslavia

[nino_savatte]

Yeah. Douglas Hurd got right stuck into dodgy Serbia telco privatisation only a fart's drift after he left his job as Foreign Minister. http://www.guardian.co.uk/serbia/article/0,2479,515442,00.html

Thanks for that link Poi E. This really smells bad and we have only been given part of the story (i.e. the Serbs are bad). Bloody Doug Turd and his "I'm a career diplomat" posturing.

I was struck particularly by the opening paragraph

Serbian government officials are convinced that Lord Hurd, the former foreign secretary, played a key role in shoring up Slobodan Milosevic in power by mediating a billion-dollar privatisation deal which provided the indicted war criminal with his war chest for his Kosovo campaign in 1998-99.

Funny how this got swept under the carpet. I guess it doesn't conform to the narrative style of the US and the EU.

 

[Cadmus]

Re sustainability

The Montenegrin Chamber of commerce has the following economic and general data on Montenegro:

Country profile

Economic structure

GDP per capita is apparently 2548 Euros

 

[Balbi]

What does this mean to the Serbia and Montenegro World Cup Squad, eh?

 

[liampreston]

What does this mean to the Serbia and Montenegro World Cup Squad, eh?

SCG Football team will still exist until after the world cup. Serbia is the successor state so will have automatic seats at FIFA and UEFA; Montenegro will have to apply from scratch.

 

[Balbi]

SCG Football team will still exist until after the world cup. Serbia is the successor state so will have automatic seats at FIFA and UEFA; Montenegro will have to apply from scratch.

Just as long as it doesn't fuck up the WC, I am happy.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

The Serb-supporting bloc wants a recount. This will piss off the EU and the US.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0523/montenegro.html

I was reading this morning in the indy that serbia has now accepted the result.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

It's interesting how democratic standards are different when it comes to (now ex) Serbia and Montenegro.

I'm unaware of any europan country defining "majority" for a referendum as 55%. The world-wide accepted standard is 50% plus one. The EU used it when voting on the Constitution for instance.

I wonder what would have happened if Montenegrins had a 54,8% yes vote.

According to the imo unfair imposed standard that would be insufficient although it would be considerably more than in any other european referendum which was accepted.

I completely understand them when they say they feel as second-class citizens.

it was imposed by the european commission. I really wonder why.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

Interesting



According to Liberation, the Montenegrin authorities have already been in talks with the EU.

Here's what Djukanovic said (apols for it being in French)


http://www.liberation.fr/page.php?Article=384218

In other words, he's convinced that Crna Gora, a state roughly the size of the London Borough of Ealing, will become the next member of the EU right behind Romania and Bulgaria. Interstingly enough, Andorra has never applied for EU membership to my recollection and neither has Leichtenstein, both countries are protected by their larger neighbours and both countries rely on their neighbours for foreign affairs and defence.

they already use the euro as their currency.

 

[liampreston]

Just as long as it doesn't fuck up the WC, I am happy.

WC is not touched - but the Euro 2008 draw may have to be looked at again. Serbia will keep its place, Montenegro will have to apply for UEFA membership and then have a new place found for them in another group somewhere.

 

[nino_savatte]

they already use the euro as their currency.

I would imagine that Montenegro's own currency is about as useful as Reichsmarks are today.

 

[liampreston]

I would imagine that Montenegro's own currency is about as useful as Reichsmarks are today.

So would I and I'm sure the people would agree too!. The advantage of Montenegro using the € is surely an easier/more secure economic road to working with the rest of Europe during the transition to full independence.

 

[nino_savatte]

So would I and I'm sure the people would agree too!. The advantage of Montenegro using the € is surely an easier/more secure economic road to working with the rest of Europe during the transition to full independence.

It's about time we had the Euro really. I get a bit fed up with paying commission every time I use an ATM on the continent.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

I would imagine that Montenegro's own currency is about as useful as Reichsmarks are today.

I'd imagine the yugoslav/serbian dinar is not of much use, these days, outside serbia. it does make sense to use a currency recognised abroad.

 

[Lock&Light]

Montenegro will have to apply from scratch.

My whole interest in this development is based on my support for the Scottish National Party. (Not Nationalist party, I hope everyone has noticed).

There is, though, one very big difference between our friends in Montenegro, and Scotland, and that is that Scotland is already a leading member of FIFA.

 

[Lock&Light]

Just as long as it doesn't fuck up the WC, I am happy.

When the old Yugoslavia was thrown out of the European Championships it resulted in their replacements winning the Cup. Poetic justice, maybe? Or, then again. maybe not.

 

[liampreston]

My whole interest in this development is based on my support for the Scottish National Party. (Not Nationalist party, I hope everyone has noticed).

There is, though, one very big difference between our friends in Montenegro, and Scotland, and that is that Scotland is already a leading member of FIFA.

I don't want to derail this thread but, if Scotland gained independence, do you not consider it likely that it too would find itself in the "back seat" with regards to its position within the UN, EU etc. After all, if Serbia is the "continuation state" following the Montenegero secession, then the remaining parts of the UK would surely continue in a similar state. I take your point about the football but that is not the only international body Scotland would have to deal with...

 

[Lock&Light]

I don't want to derail this thread but, if Scotland gained independence, do you not consider it likely that it too would find itself in the "back seat" with regards to its position within the UN, EU etc. ...

Without having gained independence I already consider that Scotland finds itself in the "back seat", and as a supporter of Scottish Independence (within the EU) I see Montenegro's success as a good omen.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

Without having gained independence I already consider that Scotland finds itself in the "back seat", and as a supporter of Scottish Independence (within the EU) I see Montenegro's success as a good omen.

I am not quite sure that the situation is comparable, really.

 

[Lock&Light]

Mind you. I could get worried, if I thought that any State Department flunkies might be deliriously joyous at the thought of Scottish Independence.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Without having gained independence I already consider that Scotland finds itself in the "back seat", and as a supporter of Scottish Independence (within the EU) I see Montenegro's success as a good omen.

It's being looked on very favourably by Catalan and Basque nationalists here.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

It's being looked on very favourably by Catalan and Basque nationalists here.

mind you, they will have to deal with the Popular party and the socialists are not that keen, although they are prepared to negociate.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

The PP are simply being obstructive wankers about everything. It's their job, I suppose.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

The PP are simply being obstructive wankers about everything. It's their job, I suppose.

when Aznar enacted a law making religious education in school compulsory and effectively supervised by the catholic church, my spanish friends went bonkers and called him him a franquista, which is what he was, really.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Has that been junked?

 

[guinnessdrinker]

I don't know. my spanish isn't very good and I don't get el pais very much. I'd imagine the socialists not very keen on this law.

 

[Cadmus]

independence for republicka srpska!!

er.. wait a minute, can't do that...

The Serb National Movement "The choice is ours" has started a campaign for the independence of RS and claims to have gathered 50k signatures petitioning for a referendum on separation of RS from Bosnia.

Link

Of course, the legal position of these territories is quite different.

While Montenegro was a state, RS is not a state but an entity of a larger state. (the article mentions the "Serb Republic" although this is only its self-given misleading name, not it's legal status).

Unlike Montenegrins, the people of RS have no right to self-determination as Serbs already have a nation-state (Serbia).

The independence of RS would also sanction forceful alteration of boundaries as RS is a direct product of the Serb military success in Bosnia.

In a wider context however if Kosovo is granted independence RS will get a valid precedent for these claims.

 

[nino_savatte]

All this talk of independence has reminded me that no one has mentioned Vojvodina...when are they going to get independence?

 

[Zinedine*]

Sorry for resurrecting an old post, but I've only just read this.

People are comparing Montenegro with Andorra and Leichenstein, but I cant understand why. Montenegro has a population of 650,000.
Andorra has only got a population of 67,000 (10 times smaller than Montenegro) and leichenstein is 20 times smaller than montenegro. They both have very little sovereignty.

Surely a better comparison would be Malta (pop: 402,000) or even Cyprus (pop 835,000).

on another note, I wonder what will happen about war criminals, it will be intresting wahat the EU?U.S. will do about Radovan Karadzic, as he is actually Montenegrin. I suppose thay will still blame Serbia as the western media like to label him a 'bosnian serb'.

 

[Cadmus]

The issue of war crimes indictees is not a matter of nationality but residence. In other words, the pressure of the "international community" is always aimed at the country protecting/hiding the suspect, not the country of his nationality (though in many cases they overlap).

In this case, Karadzic is most likely protected either by Serbia or the Serb part of Bosnia. The other one, Mladic, is confirmed to be hiding in Serbia.

Montenegro has a clear record regarding cooperation with the ICTY.

 

[Poi E]

Montenegro has a clear record regarding cooperation with the ICTY.

And it's pretty fucking amazing that no Mont. officers have taken a dive for their involvement in the attack on S Croatia/Dubrovnik and Bosnia.

Wasn't that long ago that Karadzic was hiding out near his dear departed Mama's place in Montenegro.