Critical Mass - what's the point?

[Lanky_bike]

And now you've engaged Daily Mail mode again..

That's me told. I'm not sure what you mean, but I'm certainly very something if in anyway way I've whatevered your sensitive thingys.

If you're that worried about pollution, start lobbying to vastly reduce the millions of cars that are clogging up the roads 24/7. By comparison, a handful of cyclists on CM only cause a truly microscopic increase, if any.

Start? I never stopped.

Oh, and for the record (which is like the Daily Mail in Scotland), I don't see CM or a load of posts on this forum as lobbying. This is just recreational, and perhaps one person might take one Friday night off to write a letter to their MP, thereby actually registering a microscopic amount more useful impact than participating in CM ever will.

 

[ethel]

newme: since when has it been safer to use a car rather than travel by public transport? family railcards can mean that the train is pretty cheap for families too!

i can't ever see myself being able to afford to run a car.

 

[Crispy]

For most car drivers who just happen to be in the area, it's a minor inconvenience that passes in minutes.

But that's not the perception, as far as I can tell. Having to sit at green lights while 'those bloody cyclists hog the road' does not cast us bloody cyclists in a good light. The attitude of other road users is beyond my control, so I believe the best approach is to fit my behaviour to that attitude without compromising my safety and convenience.

I can't believe that you of all people should be against cyclists making such a peaceful and brief protest - motorists dish out congestion, pollution and inconvenience every day, so I can't see what's to get worked up about when it's just a bunch of cyclists having a bit of slightly anarchic fun.

You're conflating two issues here. I think people driving cars in central London are Bad People and I'd like to see less of them. I'd like to see those people treat myself and other cyclists with the respect due to any road user.

What I'm against is any action that causes other people's opinion of myself and other cyclists to worsen. In my opinion, this is the main effect that critical mass has. I would support a protest/movement/action/campaign that I believed would benefit myself and other cyclists (I'm a member of LCC for example).

So, I'm all for the ends. Just against this particular means.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

No, that's the Royal Oak! We live about a mile from there.

The Parrot won "fifth best pub in Britain for food" earlier this year, if that is any incentive. it has a farm shop inside it too. And it doesn't have a cheese board, it has a cheese book. Mmmmmm, cheese.

Farm shop & cheese book!?!? Sold.

 

[fredfelt]

Oh, and for the record (which is like the Daily Mail in Scotland), I don't see CM or a load of posts on this forum as lobbying. This is just recreational

Yes.

 

[editor]

But that's not the perception, as far as I can tell. Having to sit at green lights while 'those bloody cyclists hog the road' does not cast us bloody cyclists in a good light.

So when cyclists are finally cast in this mystical, "good light" how do things get better?

Will drivers stop shouting at us because we failed to move out of their way quickly enough? Will drivers suddenly start treating us with more respect and give us more room on the road?

I've been a "good cyclist" for decades. I don't jump lights. I don't hurtle along pavements. And you know what? I've been subjected to years of dangerous driving and zero respect from a sizeable portion of car drivers. I've had bikes broken by fuckwit drivers and narrowly escaped serious injuries because of aggressive drivers.

I don't give a fuck about being cast in a good light. I care about my safety and my right to use the roads without fear of being harassed, harangued and been made to feel like a second class citizen by impatient and sometimes dangerous drivers.

Oh, and seeing as people keep dredging in dangerous, reckless cyclists - yes, they're a bunch of cunts too. But I'm not.

 

[Crispy]

Respect will only come when there's a genuine critical mass of cyclists on the roads every day. Numbers are rising as we speak. This should be coupled with public education campaigns and better enforcement of road safety law.

I want this to happen, I just don't think CM is a constructive way of bringing it about.

 

[editor]

Respect will only come when there's a genuine critical mass of cyclists on the roads every day. Numbers are rising as we speak. This should be coupled with public education campaigns and better enforcement of road safety law.

Yes, but while drivers continue to drive aggressively and view cyclists as second rate road citizens and while the roads continue to fill up with more and more traffic, that's never going to happen.

Cyclists have been lobbying for years. I'd argue that Critical Mass has helped push their profile up substantially. You'd obviously disagree.

 

[Crispy]

Yes, but while drivers continue to drive aggressively and view cyclists as second rate road citizens and while the roads continue to fill up with more and more traffic, that's never going to happen.

Cyclists have been lobbying for years. I'd argue that Critical Mass has helped push their profile up substantially. You'd obviously disagree.

Yes I would. Shall we stop there?

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Respect will only come when there's a genuine critical mass of cyclists on the roads every day. Numbers are rising as we speak. This should be coupled with public education campaigns and better enforcement of road safety law.

I want this to happen, I just don't think CM is a constructive way of bringing it about.

^^^This.

I walk across Waterloo Bridge at about 830 each morning, as it's a major cycle route, that critical mass is being reached. At teh junction with the Strand the cycles rule, they spread out in the cycle box in front of all the other traffic. Each and every red light is met with 20-40 bikes and the cars seem to respect them.

 

[Crispy]

^^^This.

I walk across Waterloo Bridge at about 830 each morning, as it's a major cycle route, that critical mass is being reached. At teh junction with the Strand the cycles rule, they spread out in the cycle box in front of all the other traffic. Each and every red light is met with 20-40 bikes and the cars seem to respect them.

Exactly. It's just a question of numbers.

 

[Lanky_bike]

Oh, and seeing as people keep dredging in dangerous, reckless cyclists - yes, they're a bunch of cunts too. But I'm not.

must.....not.......respond.......must......be........trap..........

 

[newme]

newme: since when has it been safer to use a car rather than travel by public transport? family railcards can mean that the train is pretty cheap for families too!

i can't ever see myself being able to afford to run a car.

Its fairly hard to lose a child whilst they are strapped securely into the backseat of the car. No one is likely to steal your luggage, nor is there a chance of leaving it behind somewhere when its stowed in the boot. There are no tickets to lose, no platforms to get stranded on, no ridiculous schedules and interconnecting bullshit to deal with in order to reach your destination. If there is any issues you can stop your progress and deal with it instead of having to just get on with it cos the train/bus/space hopper isnt gonna wait.

As far as the costing is concerned, the last time I looked into moving two adults and two kids the 100 miles I needed to, it was twice as expensive to buy train tickets than to hire a van and pay for the fuel. Way more restrictive, and a huge pain in the arse with a 2 and 4 year old who were free to act like kids in the van without having to worry about some smarmy arsehole getting uppity about it on the train. Aswel as having to keep an eye on them and several large suitcases.

That's fine. Use the road how you see fit.

On occasion I'll use the road to get around, chat to friends, listen to music etc. I'll just do it on my bike. I might do it with some friends at the same time.

Whats your point caller?

 

[newme]

Cyclists have been lobbying for years. I'd argue that Critical Mass has helped push their profile up substantially. You'd obviously disagree.

While it may have put them more in the spotlight than they might have been before, its not for a positive reason and that shows I think by the reactions people seem to have to it. As an activity Im sure its enjoyable to take part in, but to think its actually having some impact other than giving shouty drivers a particular target other than 'bloody cyclists' is somewhat pushing it.

 

[ethel]

Its fairly hard to lose a child whilst they are strapped securely into the backseat of the car. No one is likely to steal your luggage, nor is there a chance of leaving it behind somewhere when its stowed in the boot. There are no tickets to lose, no platforms to get stranded on, no ridiculous schedules and interconnecting bullshit to deal with in order to reach your destination. If there is any issues you can stop your progress and deal with it instead of having to just get on with it cos the train/bus/space hopper isnt gonna wait.

as far as i'm aware, there is no major issue with children disappearing while on public transport. i use the trains regularly and have never had my luggage stolen. add that to the fact that you can get on the train and actually spend time with your kids rather than have to concentrate on driving.

just seems to me like you are throwing any possible obstacle in the way of using the train rather than acknowledging that it is a viable alternative to using a car.

 

[newme]

as far as i'm aware, there is no major issue with children disappearing while on public transport. i use the trains regularly and have never had my luggage stolen. add that to the fact that you can get on the train and actually spend time with your kids rather than have to concentrate on driving.

just seems to me like you are throwing any possible obstacle in the way of using the train rather than acknowledging that it is a viable alternative to using a car.

lol, whilst there might not be a major issue with them disappearing whilst on public transport having taken said kids on the bus numerous times, I knew it wasnt a cakewalk, and that was a 15-20minute journey, not 2-3 hours with a change of station in the middle and luggage to lug about the place, etc etc. Were able to stop halfway, get something decent to eat, wander about n let everyone stretch there legs a bit without trailing luggage about everywhere.

Ive never had luggage stolen, I have lost things on trains however and I didnt have 2 kids with me and twice as many suitcases to deal with at the time nor 3 people counting on me to get every little detail right so we didnt end up stranded somewhere or without something. Especially on the first trip the kids had ever had out of the country. Apart from the fact it was gonna cost me twice as much for a lot more issues and inconveniences.

As to the issue of spending time with the kids whilst on the train versus the van it was completely irrelevant since as I dont drive I wasn't doing that and even had I been their mum was there.

Im not throwing obstacles in the way of anything, Im setting out the highly valid reasons against the use of the train under the exact circumstances I specified. Strangely enough people tend to do that when justifying their position.

My immediate reaction was to use the train, because thats what Ive done every other time Ive had to get to an airport to go somewhere. Even tho all but one occasion has meant that by doing that I had to sit in an airport for 6 hours to wait for the flight cos nothing arrived even close to the right time. But dont let that get in the way of your ill conceived notions.

 

[ethel]

you weren't talking about going to an airport though, you were talking about going somewhere involving the london congestion charge zone

Far easier and safer, especially with luggage or kids to take the car, deal with the stupid congestion tax and not get stranded waiting for public transport.

anyway..time to stop derailing the thread...

 

[newme]

you weren't talking about going to an airport though, you were talking about going somewhere involving the london congestion charge zone

Well no those are actually two completely seperate points.

The comments I made about the London congestion charge were related to visitors, to London who might have travelled by car because of the inconvenience and expense of other methods.

Well tbh if you actually live in London, I dont see a large point in getting a car for general use, Im sure there are a plethora of exceptions to this. If your visiting then what else are you gonna do, trains are an expensive inconvenient disaster area, planes are patchy about managing to get what you want where you want for a decent price without getting screwed on taxes and hardly the best environment wise if your just going across the country. Far easier and safer, especially with luggage or kids to take the car, deal with the stupid congestion tax and not get stranded waiting for public transport.

As clearly stated there I dont see the point in having a car in London, so your assertion that I somehow have some objection to the train as an alternative form of transport is patently wrong.

Whereas the comments about travelling to an airport were in direct response to you questioning about expense and safety concerns. I gave that example as it was the occasion where I had actually compared both methods directly. Tho I fail to see how that would invalidate them as Im fairly sure there is at least one airport in London, where travelling there by car would necessitate the paying of the congestion charge along the line somewhere.

Even if not travelling to an airport, if coming as a visitor as part of a group, especially with kids or lots of luggage, as I stated in the quote above. Whether its going to an airport, hotel or underwater basket weaving facility, the issues around getting there remain the same.

 

[Miss-Shelf]

back to critical mass...

...I was having the conversation with my non-cycling partner the other day...he made the same points as some posters that CM is counter-productive to the cyclist cause

what I get from CM is solidarity and celebration and normalisation of an activity that I usually do by myself with a little or a lot of trepidation

CM gives me strength that helps me contiune to ride by myself

in that sense it helps the cyclists cause

 

[Herbsman.]

back to critical mass...

...I was having the conversation with my non-cycling partner the other day...he made the same points as some posters that CM is counter-productive to the cyclist cause

what I get from CM is solidarity and celebration and normalisation of an activity that I usually do by myself with a little or a lot of trepidation

CM gives me strength that helps me contiune to ride by myself

in that sense it helps the cyclists cause

thats one of the postive things i got from CM

but you gotta look at the wider effect

 

[HackneyE9]

Really? I've never seen ANY, as a cyclist or a car driver.

 

[editor]

The problem is that cyclists don't have much of a profile, not do they have the colossal budget of the motor lobby, so with a low profile and not much of a voice or a lobbying budget, they tend to be at the back of the queue when it comes to funding and initiatives.

A lot of potential cyclists are also put off by the perceived danger of roads, especially with traffic rising. So they use their cars or public transport instead.

This leaves cyclists with a tough job of trying to increase their profile, and the logical way to do that is by lobbying through the usual channels, joining cycling groups... and through Critical Mass. They all play a part.

 

[editor]

Ive never had luggage stolen, I have lost things on trains however and I didnt have 2 kids with me and twice as many suitcases to deal with at the time nor 3 people counting on me to get every little detail right so we didnt end up stranded somewhere or without something.

How strange. I've never lost a single thing on any train ever - and that includes when taking kids around.

 

[HackneyE9]

what I get from CM is solidarity and celebration and normalisation of an activity

What she said.

And if nothing else, the cops in London eventually had to get on bikes themselves to police it.

 

[newme]

How strange. I've never lost a single thing on any train ever - and that includes when taking kids around.

Turns out a few other people lose things on public transport. Hardly saying its a trend but its not exactly unheard of.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/contact/871.aspx

 

[free spirit]

"critical mass - what's the point?"

to me, critical mass can be a useful protest action to use if you have some specific cycling measures you want to get implemented, or possibly if there's significant problems with driver awareness of cyclists etc.

Thing is though that simply continuing with the critical masses essentially for the social side of it, with no clear agenda or 'demands' that you aim to achieve through the protests is just going to piss people off for no clear benefit IMO.

If I remember right, the Critical Mass in Leeds originally started out in the mid to late 90's largely with the aim of getting cycle lanes down the main road into the centre from Headingley (Otley Road). This section of road is quite narrow and originally had 3 lanes, one of which was a reversible bus lane, so you'd have a bus lane into town in the morning, and bus lane out of town in the afternoon, which worked well for years. Initially the council responded to the cycling demands by sticking in a seperate cycle lane that ran down some parallel streets because there was no room for one on the main road. At some point, the cyclists demands must have been listened to as the road was changed to incorporate a cycle lane either side of the road, which unfortunately means that there's no room for a seperate bus lane. This means that this section now forms a major log jam, with buses stuck in the same traffic jams as the cars where they used to have their own seperate bus lane....

Essentially what I'm getting at is that the original demands of the Critical Mass in Leeds have been met, they have a dedicated cycle lane along otley road. In doing so they've fucked over bus passengers who now have to sit in traffic jams. That being the case, and unless there's some new clearly thought out cycling strategy the critical masses are campaigning for, I think they should really just give it a rest.

 

[fredfelt]

Whats your point caller?

My point was that just as you justify your driving in the city for what ever reason I'll ride my bike in the city for what ever reason. I see a CM ride as a perfectly legitimate way to use a city's streets.

Any talk about a ride causing traffic congestion from someone who drives in a city to me is just nonsense.

 

[Lanky_bike]

Essentially what I'm getting at is that the original demands of the Critical Mass in Leeds have been met, they have a dedicated cycle lane along otley road. In doing so they've fucked over bus passengers who now have to sit in traffic jams. That being the case, and unless there's some new clearly thought out cycling strategy the critical masses are campaigning for, I think they should really just give it a rest.

I doubt any of us would have a go at CM for what they achieved when they DID have a specific goal, just a shame the council didn't come up with a better solution, especially as that particular journey already has loads of alternative routes that don't involve the main road.

Ah well - guess I'll wait until the last Friday of the month, have a couple of pints and then drunkenly harangue the CM cyclists as I wait for my bus. Now *that's* free (and semi-coherent) speech.

 

[Lanky_bike]

Any talk about a ride causing traffic congestion from someone who drives in a city to me is just nonsense.

You should lurk up to Leeds - with the exception of an hour a day, and a couple of well-known bottlenecks, traffic is usually free-flowing. Except in our many pedestrianised areas. Obviously.

I think this actually makes cycling safer too, because you don't have so much random lane-changing/swerving without indicating and so many of the other reasons that I have nothing but sympathy with most London cyclists.

Aye, Yorkshire. *sighs contentedly*.

 

[editor]

Ah well - guess I'll wait until the last Friday of the month, have a couple of pints and then drunkenly harangue the CM cyclists as I wait for my bus.

Sounds like you've got some aggression issues there. Do you drunkenly harangue passing car drivers too? After all, they cause an infinitely greater amount of congestion - and noise and pollution - every day of the week, and not just for a few passing moments, once a month, like the cyclists.