1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Creating "Lexit": What is to be done?

Discussion in 'UK politics, current affairs and news' started by chilango, Feb 19, 2017.

  1. TruXta

    TruXta tired

    I guess this is partly why people retreat either into apathy or the cozy delusion that Labour is actually a left wing party.

    OTOH where's change coming from if there's no mass movement?
     
  2. Brainaddict

    Brainaddict chief propagandist (provisional)

    Well, quite, this is where I get frustrated with the argument that the Labour party can't do anything radical. In the absence of a mass movement, nothing radical will happen anyway. So given that absence, it's better to have a left-led Labour in charge than not.

    There's an argument that the closest thing we've had to a mass movement recently - Momentum - is sucking energy away from the 'real' mass movement. But this argument ignores the evidence of the last 30 years, the last 20 of which I have experienced. An extra-parliamentary mass movement simply wasn't happening. The Labour party was not and is not what is preventing the formation of that mass movement.

    So yeah, I'd prefer the Labour party to be in charge of Brexit right now.
     
  3. Rob Ray

    Rob Ray Irony is well sad

    Yes and no. I'd not argue that the non-Labour left's decline is in down to the party's fortunes (my experience of the last 20 years is that whoever was in charge the left was pretty bolloxed) but the rise of Momentum has ime, in at least some cases, grabbed people I know who might otherwise have been involved in other campaigns and instead gotten them spending their time at meetings trying to capture roles in their CLP. As Ash Sarkar put it:



    And the point is not to pretend that there's a mass movement, it's to be clear-eyed about the situation. Labour is at best a band aid (and I have no particular problem with people who want to vote for that if they think it'll help) and we don't have a mass movement. Asking "where's change coming from then" is therefore the wrong question for the short or medium term, things will get worse and I don't see much suggesting any way out of that short of a truly surprising upsurge in rebellious behaviour (which has, tbf, happened before). That doesn't change what the solution ultimately is, or the job that needs doing to get it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
    danny la rouge and redsquirrel like this.
  4. SaskiaJayne

    SaskiaJayne Rural Guerrilla

    Thankyou to the last few posters for clear explanations. That’s all I have really been trying to get a handle on.
     
  5. Brainaddict

    Brainaddict chief propagandist (provisional)

    I agree with the second paragraph. On the first para, I know some of the people around Novara Media and their wider circle, and the change most of them made was from organising in the very insular anarcho-activist bubble to organising in the Labour party. I'm afraid that my view of that activist world is low enough that (even though I don't and won't organise in the LP myself) I actually think this change is an improvement - they are now organising with a much broader base than before and it's good that people are getting experience with that. They might actually use that experience outside the LP at some point, and they really weren't doing anything that interesting before. I agree with you that the LP is not really what we need, but I see the changes happening in it as a bit more glass half-full than half empty I guess.
     
  6. Bernie Gunther

    Bernie Gunther Fundamentalist Druid

    Seriously, this.

    From those who don't think 2) would happen in the event of Corbyn / Labour getting in, I'd love to hear an explanation of just why the forms of economic and political coercion applied in all similar cases wouldn't be in this one, or how if they were, what the means of preventing them from causing a Syriza style capitulation might be.
     
  7. SaskiaJayne

    SaskiaJayne Rural Guerrilla

    Perhaps just look at a couple of specific problems in the UK right now? An ufair & downright cruel benefits system. Could not an incoming Labour government address that & also begin to address the supply & affordability in the housing market by allowing local authorities to borrow to build council housing that could not be sold off without causing world capitalism to conspire to bring them down?
     
  8. sealion

    sealion Marilise Legijuana

    Do labour have a plan/policy in place for this to happen ?
     
  9. SaskiaJayne

    SaskiaJayne Rural Guerrilla

    At last GE Corbyn stated he would “build a million council houses” & it appeared to be a vote winner. It is accepted this needs to happen & can be made to happen so it needs a government with the will to make it happen.
     
  10. sealion

    sealion Marilise Legijuana

    Do they have a blueprint for this ? How will they pull this off ?
     
  11. Rob Ray

    Rob Ray Irony is well sad

    The problem isn't really with will or desire though, it's leverage over the markets. At present May (and by extension McDonnell) doesn't have any, which means strength of character or no they're getting rinsed (eg. what's happening with the EU right now). It really doesn't matter how plucky an eight-stone weakling is if they're surrounded by ruthless heavyweight boxers.

    Westminster doesn't have much sway over key resources you can't get elsewhere (bar maybe a financial sector, which is currently doing a very good job of squeezing Theresa May on Brexit in favour of the EU). It's a big trading nation but has a massive trade deficit, mostly doesn't produce its own food or energy, the vast majority of its infrastructure is owned by transnational firms. There's little Britain has that it can realistically use to force a good deal.

    To build a million council houses however you need £15bn a year in loans — in fact they're saying £500bn all told for infrastructure (likely an underestimate). That money has to be loaned from the ruling class. In order to get that money you need to convince them, essentially, that giving it to you will benefit them more than not giving it to you.

    So if Westminster has no leverage or other means of convincing this extended version of Dragons Den to put up funding, getting massive loans will necessarily involve gold-plated deals, guarantees, serious efforts to "balance the books" (ie. more austerity, lower taxes) etc etc if the markets going to hand over anything remotely close to the required amounts. People don't just give money to Marxists, they want to see that you're a Responsible Statesman who'll play ball.

    In theory this would be where a powerful working class movement comes in — historically social democrats have been able to justify State-led investment by essentially telling bosses "it's either us or riots and strikes, which is bad for business." But that doesn't exist. So what's left is a reality where yes, you might get money for infrastructure. But you'll be made to pay. And by you, I mean the working classes, in a million different ways.
     
    yield, emanymton, mather and 6 others like this.
  12. paolo

    paolo Well-Known Member

    It’s no more analysed than Brexit, maybe even less so.

    Until people are properly informed, should they be allowed to vote?
     
  13. TruXta

    TruXta tired

    What do you think?
     
  14. paolo

    paolo Well-Known Member

    I think people should be able to vote, regardless of political study.

    What do you think?
     
  15. TruXta

    TruXta tired

    I agree
     
  16. paolo

    paolo Well-Known Member

    And so a simple question, for simple people (me), who should ‘we’ vote for?

    In the context of Brexit, eg what are the opportunities once we’re out?

    Rail is my interest. EU 4th railway package makes it more difficult, although not impossible, to have State Rail. Once we’re out, we can go as far as we like.

    Are there any other Brexit related changes that are an opportunity?
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
  17. sealion

    sealion Marilise Legijuana

    I know.
    Yes. I think it's down to the individual to research and question whats being sold to them.
     
  18. SaskiaJayne

    SaskiaJayne Rural Guerrilla

    I suppose it comes down to least worst option is a vote for Labour. Whether one votes Labour with little expectation of anything or with great enthusiasm & hope it is still a vote for Labour. If they get enough votes at next GE for a majority then we will see what sort of a fist they will make of it. They have my vote fwiw & I suspect they will have the votes of most posters on urban who intend to vote.
     
  19. ska invita

    ska invita back on the other side

    1980

    2017 - one of the biggest tunes of last year
     
    J Ed likes this.
  20. Kaka Tim

    Kaka Tim Crush the Saboteurs!

    but the uk government can sell bonds and borrow money at very favourable rates. It can also encourage mutual and LAs to do it themselves. the uk construction industry would be very happy though. the resistance from capital would come if the government attempted any serious wealth distribution.
     
  21. Rob Ray

    Rob Ray Irony is well sad

    The terms of bonds are only as good what the market thinks is reasonable and in the case of a left-wing government facing a kicking from major sovereign powers those "favourable rates" are as dependent on Responsible Statesman as anything else.
     
  22. ska invita

    ska invita back on the other side

    There wasn't much of a lexit voice during the campaign but it seems even quiter now (silent?).
    Are any public lexit voices/groupings calling for making sure Brexit still happens or even pushing for a hard Brexit (or otherwise discussing the merits/cons of hard v soft)
    ?
     
  23. SaskiaJayne

    SaskiaJayne Rural Guerrilla

    If theres any chance of lexit at all then we will need to elect Corbyn. It’s going from bad to worse for the Tories so Labour’s best bet is to keep fairly quiet & let them get on with it for the moment.
     
  24. danny la rouge

    danny la rouge This is definitely the darkest timeline

    *my editorial.

    No. Rob Griffiths was the official voice during the referendum, but I haven't seen anything from him since.

    I suppose it could be argued that Corbyn should be carving out this territory, given that he wants to abide by the referendum result. But he hasn't convincingly defined any real position on Brexit. He's criticised the Tories, but I have no real sense of what Labour would hope to achieve from Brexit. Do you? Does anyone?
     
    mather and crossthebreeze like this.
  25. ska invita

    ska invita back on the other side

    Corbyn actively contradicts himself week to week. I presume on purpose.
     
  26. SaskiaJayne

    SaskiaJayne Rural Guerrilla

    I suppose Labour could reasonably argue that they cannot have any firm position on brexit because nobody has any idea what brexit will look like at the time of the next GE whenever that might be? This strategy puts winning next GE ahead of anything else though. Their hope would be for the Tories to fuck it up so badly that even Tory voters will take a punt on Labour.
     
  27. DotCommunist

    DotCommunist my world is fire and blood

    Barbara Ellen in a saturday column called it (labours seeming ambiguity on matters) 'two faced and pathetic' but then goes on to say thats why she's voting lib dem. So y'know.
     
    Almor and danny la rouge like this.
  28. ska invita

    ska invita back on the other side

    not really, its Labours job to put forward an alternative manifesto and vision. I'm sure they're working on that behind the scenes, but they're not exactly leading from the front on what that 'left' vision is. In fact I don't see anyone really doing that at this volatile moment
     
  29. butchersapron

    butchersapron blood on the walls

    I've gone around suggesting that brexit voters are racist. That''s pretty much it.
     

Share This Page