Creating fair sustainable local employment

[mk12]

Way to right off everyone but the far left as nationalists.

 

[Fruitloop]

The ideas of the ruling class are in every epoch the ruling ideas, i.e. the class which is the ruling material force of society, is at the same time its ruling intellectual force.

I don't get why this is still so surprising.

 

[Spion]

Way to right off everyone but the far left as nationalists.

right off? [sic] who's doing that? they may have nationalist and xenophobic ideas but they're still working people who have to be connected with and offered a solution

 

[Fruitloop]

The division of labour, which we already saw above as one of the chief forces of history up till now, manifests itself also in the ruling class as the division of mental and material labour, so that inside this class one part appears as the thinkers of the class (its active, conceptive ideologists, who make the perfecting of the illusion of the class about itself their chief source of livelihood), while the others’ attitude to these ideas and illusions is more passive and receptive, because they are in reality the active members of this class and have less time to make up illusions and ideas about themselves. Within this class this cleavage can even develop into a certain opposition and hostility between the two parts, which, however, in the case of a practical collision, in which the class itself is endangered, automatically comes to nothing, in which case there also vanishes the semblance that the ruling ideas were not the ideas of the ruling class and had a power distinct from the power of this class. The existence of revolutionary ideas in a particular period presupposes the existence of a revolutionary class....

Maybe we should start from here.....

 

[mk12]

right off? [sic] who's doing that? they may have nationalist and xenophobic ideas but they're still working people who have to be connected with and offered a solution

So the left's role is to offer people a solution?

 

[Spion]

So the left's role is to offer people a solution?

could we have more of a conversation rather than you just pick up on fragments of what i say and asking daft questions?

 

[mk12]

right off? [sic] who's doing that? they may have nationalist and xenophobic ideas but they're still working people who have to be connected with and offered a solution

You said that immigration controls are nationalist. Around 98% of people (if we go by polls) support some form of control, so I assume you think 98% of people are nationalists. Which I think it ludicrous.

You also suggested that it's up to the left to offer people a "solution". I was just checking that's what you thought.

 

[Spion]

You said that immigration controls are nationalist. Around 98% of people (if we go by polls) support some form of control, so I assume you think 98% of people are nationalists. Which I think it ludicrous.

The point seems to rest on whether immigration controls are nationalist or not. It seems to me they are because they control access to resources based on nationality. Is that not true?

 

[bluestreak]

@ mk12 - But people wouldn't necessarily describe themselves as Nationalist, nor are necessarily motivated by Nationalism. The outcome is the same. They may simply hate foreigners. They may like foreigners but believe that our welfare system is being stretched. They may believe, like yourself and d02, that free borders are bad for working class unity. However, the practical outcome is the same no matter the motivation - that you are attacking our fellow working classes, just as the bosses want.

 

[tarannau]

But we have some form of immigration control already.

Besides, after centuries of xenophobia and alarmist anti-immigration standpoints in the media, it's not really a fair, informed point to start from is it?

By the same measure the vast majority would support tax cuts that would invariably lead to a decline in public services, the majority would also believe Diana was killed by MI5 Sky Pixies, the Da Vinci Code is a real conspiracy and that Boyzone are the greatest singing group to ever perform at Christmas.

Mob rule and apparent popularity aren't always the best grounds to build decent policy from

 

[Fruitloop]

@ mk12 - But people wouldn't necessarily describe themselves as Nationalist, nor are necessarily motivated by Nationalism. The outcome is the same. They may simply hate foreigners. They may like foreigners but believe that our welfare system is being stretched. They may believe, like yourself and d02, that free borders are bad for working class unity. However, the practical outcome is the same no matter the motivation - that you are attacking our fellow working classes, just as the bosses want.

Also, how people self-describe isn't worth a donkey-fart unless you work for YouGov. I think it's safe to assume that the great majority of people are nationalist to some degree, even when they describe themselves as socialists apparently.

 

[mk12]

But we have some form of immigration control already.

Besides, after centuries of xenophobia and alarmist anti-immigration standpoints in the media, it's not really a fair, informed point to start from is it?

By the same measure the vast majority would support tax cuts that would invariably lead to a decline in public services, the majority would also believe Diana was killed by MI5 Sky Pixies, the Da Vinci Code is a real conspiracy and that Boyzone are the greatest singing group to ever perform at Christmas.

Mob rule and apparent popularity aren't always the best grounds to build decent policy from

That's quite a patronising look at people in this country. If society isn't to be run by majority rule, who should run it for us? An enlightened minority?

bluestreak: i'd agree with that. People are support some form of border controls do so for a variety of reasons. Not necessarily because people are racist, or xenophonic, or anti-immigrant, or nationalist.

 

[tarannau]

No. it's a reality based look. The day that we have full information, an unbiased media and greater involvement in politics is when a different democratic model becomes genuinely possible. This idea of a simplistic, topline 'majority' may just about be plausible for Pop Idol and ITV fixed phone ins, but that's all the real relevance it holds in reality at the moment.

 

[Brainaddict]

It seems that rather than deal with the issues and questions durruti asks, people put words in his mouth and subtely hint that he has a lot in common with the BNP. It happens a lot.

Just to add, I think the point you're missing with this post is that durruti02 has been posting exactly the same poisonous shit on these forums for months. People have provided hundreds of arguments against his xenophobic, small-minded, deeply misguided take on 'socialism' and he simply goes on posting the same old crap. If you've missed all this then perhaps you could do a search of his threads so that you can catch up on the arguments.

I for one am not interested in trying to reason with him any more and I'm happy to admit it.

 

[mk12]

You see, he does start a lot of threads about immigration. But I don't see the problem with this. Immigration is a big issue, it should be discussed. I cannot agree that his posting is "poisonous" either.

 

[Spion]

Immigration is a big issue, it should be discussed. I cannot agree that his posting is "poisonous" either.

Perhaps 'poisonous' is too far. But it's all a bit fishy. I mean, the first thing a working class activist should do in the face of immigration is argue for solidarity with and organisation of immigrant workers with those already here, and against the common enemy.

What do we get from D02, Baldwin, Treelover? - constant haranguing to start making a big deal about immigration/for immigration controls. Something ain't right there.

 

[kyser_soze]

I'm still mystified as to what physical area can be defined as 'local'...

 

[Spion]

I'm still mystified as to what physical area can be defined as 'local'...

it's probably one of those things you 'just know', as long as you're local, like (taps side of nose, glances at brown bloke across the road)

 

[kyser_soze]

Inevitably, when you're a bit too 'local'...

 

[mk12]

Perhaps 'poisonous' is too far. But it's all a bit fishy. I mean, the first thing a working class activist should do in the face of immigration is argue for solidarity with and organisation of immigrant workers with those already here, and against the common enemy.

What do we get from D02, Baldwin, Treelover? - constant haranguing to start making a big deal about immigration/for immigration controls. Something ain't right there.

Someone can pull me up on it if I am wrong, but I am sure Durruti02 has said in the past this is exactly what he does do with his local trade union branch.

 

[Spion]

Someone can pull me up on it if I am wrong, but I am sure Durruti02 has said in the past this is exactly what he does do with his local trade union branch.

the fact that you're not sure, and that in months of viewing D02's posts I've never noticed it, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY that this is not his main line of argument on immigration seems to indicate it's not important to him

 

[untethered]

Why would British workers want to show solidarity with immigrants? They're only here to take their jobs and drive down wages.

Makes no sense at all.

 

[mk12]

He'll be along in no time to clear it up for us.

AND MOST IMPORTANTLY that this is not his main line of argument on immigration seems to indicate it's not important to him

If I am right, his argument would appear to be: support those immigrant workers who are here by getting them unionised, but ask questions about the overall capitalist use of immigration. Which is quite sensible. Rather than wanting mass immigration to happen (which you seemed to allude to the other day) regardless of its effects.

 

[Spion]

If I am right, his argument would appear to be: support those immigrant workers who are here by getting them unionised, but ask questions about the overall capitalist use of immigration. Which is quite sensible. Rather than wanting mass immigration to happen (which you seemed to allude to the other day) regardless of its effects.

'Ask questions' about immigration? Why so vague? A leftist should be telling it as they see it and providing points of action in response.

a - Immigration helps drive down wages etc etc
b - The w/c activist's response should be to campaign for unionisation of immigrant workers and for massively boosted public spending on housing etc, paid for by the rich/big business
(c -why not oppose immigration? Because there are plenty who already are, and they're overwhelmingly the enemies of the w/c and you'd never be distinguishable from them)

I didn't allude. I said immigrant workers are welcome here.

 

[audiotech]

Why would British workers want to show solidarity with immigrants? They're only here to take their jobs and drive down wages.

Makes no sense at all.

Not to some complete plank I grant you, .

Showing solidarity is to the benefit of all workers.

 

[Spion]

Why would British workers want to show solidarity with immigrants? They're only here to take their jobs and drive down wages.

I would suggest the bosses are the ones who really drive down wages and decide whether people work or not. Workers are but the pawns in the game, so best get wise to who's the real enemy

 

[ViolentPanda]

"Local jobs for local people", eh?

How very Royston Vasey.

 

[nino_savatte]

"Local jobs for local people", eh?

How very Royston Vasey.

I figured this thread would end up in the usual place.

 

[nino_savatte]

I bandy this word around so to clarify

- employers should recruit locally
- local people should be trained properly ( we are the least skilled in western europe)
- a job swop system should be created so the millions of workers who do similar jobs in areas away from their own can swop with those who commute into their area etc
- employers should buy local
- and local producers should create for need not profit

this reduces unemployment, gives people a stake in their local society, and drastcially reduces transport costs as less people travel for work and less goods are shipped unneccessarily .. so all in all sustainable

Have you ever travelled to anywhere outside this country, durutti? I get the feeling that you have never been abroad.

 

[kyser_soze]

I sometimes get the feeling he's never travelled outside his much vaunted 'locality'...