Cray Valley PM v Hamlet (Isthmian League) Saturday 5th April 2025

[blueheaven]

Yesterday was my first Hamlet game in a year and a half and one of only about four games I've made it to since moving up to Scotland in 2021. Before that I was a season ticket holder for around six or seven years and got to experience some of the most enjoyable days at the football I've had in my life with Gavin Rose's team rising up through the leagues and some really talented players on show (Oztumer, Carew, Kargbo, Clunis, Pinnock, Allassani etc) in front of growing crowds and a real feeling that something special was happening at the club.

Since moving away I've kept in touch with goings-on at the club as best I can, but honestly yesterday was just such an eye opener. Yes we were a bit better in the first half (and scored a really good goal) but on the whole I thought we were really poor. I sensed no real game plan, no identity to how the manager wants us to play, and no spirit or drive from the players. All the shouting I heard from the players was individual moaning when things went badly. I didn't hear anything that sounded like leadership or motivation. I'm not going to say the players weren't trying, but to me they all looked very frustrated and lacking in organisation, leadership and a clear plan. And yes, compared to what we had before, it also has to be said lacking in quality.

I just find it really sad to see what's happened to the club and I don't really understand why it has happened. I think the uncertainty around the stadium can only carry so much of the blame. With hindsight, was getting rid of Gavin Rose a mistake? I know it felt like his time was up but equally it always felt like he was responsible for so much work behind the scenes and his vision and high standards really drove the club forward. Who carries that responsibilty for driving the club forward now and what are they doing to ensure that happens? I know other clubs in the league apparently have wealthy backers but surely with our massive attendances it shouldn't be unreasonable to expect us to be more competitive than we are?

For a club that has built so much to be in this league position is just unacceptable and I really wonder what is going to change to make sure that situation turns around. To me it feels a little like the club is sleepwalking its way down the leagues with very little being done to wake it up. I'm basically an outsider and I don't have any answers but I just find it heartbreaking to see.

 

[AveryDave]

What an awful performance, after being in a decent position at half time.
I'm struggling to see why J B-W is in the team ,never mind Captain!
He's clearly not fit and over weight.
I suppose he's a perfect example on why we're struggling.

There might be something behind his physical condition that we don’t know about, but despite saying in his re-signing interview that he was planning to be fitter and more durable he looks bigger than ever, his performances have dropped to liability levels, and he’s missed roughly 30% more games than last season.

He’s clearly seen as one of the leaders in the squad, but if he’s held up as the standard it’s hardly surprising we’re in trouble.

 

[Pink Panther]

What an awful performance, after being in a decent position at half time.
I'm struggling to see why J B-W is in the team ,never mind Captain!
He's clearly not fit and over weight.
I suppose he's a perfect example on why we're struggling.

I don't think we have a lot of alternatives right now. The back three of Mason-Chambers-Wynter was working quite well during our February revival. The loss of Wynter (and Hudson) has been damaging in recent matches, and I believe Barnes is also out for the season now, hence Dylan Berry is back in goal.

JBW and Chambers together at the back is a flaw for me, and Chambers offers the big asset of winning every aerial duel. I can't help thinking JBW might offer more as an attacking midfielder. He's got great touch and balance in tight areas and can shoot with power and accuracy from 18-25 yards, but this isn't really the time for the sort of experiment that could easily flop.

We've just played three consecutive games against teams cemented in the top 5, so on paper we were going to lose those games anyway. The home defeat to Cheshunt immediately beforehand was the real setback for me. They never looked like scoring until we conceded a penalty in stoppage time, and we'd wasted an earlier penalty of our own that could have put more onus on them to attack us, potentially leading to further chances of our own.

I was pretty grumpy after yesterday, but it's in our hands to send Bognor down next weekend and take a step towards saving ourselves. They'd be down by now if they hadn't won at home to Potters Bar yesterday, a result that wasn't entirely surprising, as was Hastings beating Bowers. Hendon's win against Chichester was more unexpected and inconvenient, and emphasises the need to win our own points rather than hoping others keep dropping theirs. We need to back ourselves to increase that gap, then we'll be closer to safety and hopefully in a cup final by the time Canvey come to Champion Hill on Easter Saturday.

 

[mattblack]

There might be something behind his physical condition that we don’t know about, but despite saying in his re-signing interview that he was planning to be fitter and more durable he looks bigger than ever, his performances have dropped to liability levels, and he’s missed roughly 30% more games than last season.

He’s clearly seen as one of the leaders in the squad, but if he’s held up as the standard it’s hardly surprising we’re in trouble.

Unfortunately he looks more like a competitive food eater, rather than a competitive footballer/ footer player?

 

[Pink Panther]

I just find it really sad to see what's happened to the club and I don't really understand why it has happened. I think the uncertainty around the stadium can only carry so much of the blame. With hindsight, was getting rid of Gavin Rose a mistake? I know it felt like his time was up but equally it always felt like he was responsible for so much work behind the scenes and his vision and high standards really drove the club forward. Who carries that responsibilty for driving the club forward now and what are they doing to ensure that happens? I know other clubs in the league apparently have wealthy backers but surely with our massive attendances it shouldn't be unreasonable to expect us to be more competitive than we are?

For a club that has built so much to be in this league position is just unacceptable and I really wonder what is going to change to make sure that situation turns around. To me it feels a little like the club is sleepwalking its way down the leagues with very little being done to wake it up. I'm basically an outsider and I don't have any answers but I just find it heartbreaking to see.

I generally prefer to stick than twist when it comes to changing the manager, but even with hindsight Gavin needed to go, and he subsequently acknowledged that himself in a video interview. It was the timing of the decision that was botched. We'd been going around in circles with no lasting improvement for several years, and he simply never demonstrated an aptitude to take us any further. The second half of his 13th and final full season was very poor (22 points from the final 24 matches) and that's when we should have parted. His final summer of recruitment proved disastrous, and his final game in charge (a 3-1 defeat away to Tonbridge) was as poor as anything I've seen since, with the possible exception of the Bognor fiasco that was the final straw for Hakan Hayrettin's tenure.

I can't argue with anything else you've written. The last 3 and a half seasons have been shocking. I thought we'd bottomed out last season with mid-table obscurity in the Isthmian Premier, but we've somehow managed to sink further, despite apparently recruiting better players than those who left last summer.

Spurs and Manchester United supporters must think they're having an unbelievably poor season. Imagine if they were only 5 points ahead of Ipswich right now, and still at risk of actually going down? That's where we are.

 

[Al Crane]

Not related to our match with them, but Cray Valley PM have been deducted 3 points for fielding an ineligible player in their 2-0 win over Potters Bar last month.

Club Statement

Rule Breach

www.crayvalleypmfc.com

 

[Al Cunningham]

Interesting quote from Steve McKimm before Saturday's game in South London Press.

 

[Pink Panther]

View attachment 473184

Interesting quote from Steve McKimm before Saturday's game in South London Press.

I can't believe there's any substance in that whatsoever. I believe there's currently a Monday daytime training session, as well as the standard Tuesday and Thursday evening sessions.

We went full-time in National South for the 2019-20 season, which was curtailed by the pandemic, and it was a conspicuous failure. We certainly don't need to be full-time in our current division, and I'm trying not to contemplate Division 1 South East!

 

[Al Cunningham]

Strange thing for him to say unless it was part of a discussion about him taking over next season

 

[Pink Panther]

Strange thing for him to say unless it was part of a discussion about him taking over next season

I did wonder whether it might have been based on him being sounded out for our job when Hak left. The comment that we have "a new management team looking after it" hints at a possible further change sooner rather than later. Alternatively he may just be repeating inaccurate hearsay, or the SLP may have reported it inaccurately, which wouldn't be a first.

Both the club and Brad were fairly clear about his appointment being open to reassessment at the end of the season, so maybe some people have misinterpreted it to mean he was never going to stay any longer?

I just can't believe we'd commit to a full-time regime again while everything remains in limbo regarding the ground redevelopment, and we still have no sort of development or age group structure beneath the men's first team.

 

[AveryDave]

The communication around the appointment process was pretty unclear.

I’m paraphrasing, but initially it was about taking the time to find the right candidate for the longer term, then quickly switched to bringing in someone to rescue this season and using the close season to assess where we are - with Quinton held up as having a track record of coming in and rescuing teams part way through a season. Probably no surprise that there’s uncertainty about his future as a result.

Very interesting on the full-time suggestion - McKimm has obviously got that from somewhere (if reported accurately), but as Pink Panther said, I’d be massively surprised if that was a serious consideration in current circumstances.

Would be interesting to understand which of the teams currently in the league are full-time, and how they’re faring - I assumed there wouldn’t be many at this level, but at the same time it doesn’t seem to be information that’s widely available.

 

[editor]

Surely it's time for leading gambling promoter Peter Crouch to save Dulwich Hamlet again?!

 

[AveryDave]

Surely it's time for leading gambling promoter Peter Crouch to save Dulwich Hamlet again?!

Well, we were lording it up in mid-table of the NLS when he left, and it’s all been downhill since then…

 

[editor]

Max pics!

In photos: another awful performance sees Dulwich Hamlet lose at Cray Valley PM, Sat 5th April 2025

There was another dismal result in store for the Dulwich Hamlet fans making the trip to Cray Valley PM on Saturday, with the pink’n’blues losing 3-1. Hamlet now find themselves now hove…

www.brixtonbuzz.com

 

[Pink Panther]

Very interesting on the full-time suggestion - McKimm has obviously got that from somewhere (if reported accurately), but as Pink Panther said, I’d be massively surprised if that was a serious consideration in current circumstances.

Would be interesting to understand which of the teams currently in the league are full-time, and how they’re faring - I assumed there wouldn’t be many at this level, but at the same time it doesn’t seem to be information that’s widely available.

The definition of "full-time" in relation to non-league teams is often open to interpretation. Our chairman (speaking at a supporters forum in 2019) defined it as a contractual obligation for the players to prioritise club commitments over any other employment. From memory the training sessions were Monday, Thursday, Friday daytimes with lunch at the ground, plus obviously Saturday matchdays and any midweek match evening. (And possibly a fourth training session if there was no midweek match?) So presumably Sundays and Wednesdays free, plus the 3 evenings after training?
I'd be surprised if anyone currently has that sort of regime in the Isthmian League. The player profiles that appeared in our programme that season suggested most players had other employment of some sort. I remember Charlie Grainger describing himself as a "part-time painter and decorator", so presumably he's now a full-time painter and decorator, but a semi-professional footballer.

Maybe some Isthmian League clubs have more than one daytime training session, but that's not the same as full-time by the above definition. A lot of the players these days seem to have flexible or freelance work, typically as football coaches of some sort, or personal trainers. It's very different to when I was the same age as the players, who were typically office workers, tradesmen (carpenter, electrician etc.), postmen, schoolteachers etc. Nathan Green is a scaffolder, who left us because we turned full-time and he couldn't commit to it. Anthony Cook, who had been at several full-time clubs before joining us, also left because he'd got a day job in the City while we were still part-time.

Most people are probably going to want at least a £30k a year salary (and possibly a multi-year contract) to forego a steady day job, so you're talking a median £600 a week per player for a squad of 20, and you're still going to miss out on decent players who can earn that from the top paying part-time clubs while retaining the security of their day job.

As you say, I'm sure Steve McKimm has genuinely got that impression from a conversation with someone or other, I just can't see how it's going to happen for next season.

 

[chris gil]

Surely it's time for leading gambling promoter Peter Crouch to save Dulwich Hamlet again?!