crack use in central brixton

[detective-boy]

But what happened, is that they fanned out into other parts of the city. What used to be a fairly concentrated problem, is now spread throughout the downtown core and surrounding neighborhoods.

That is my point. Aggressive policing does not actually solve the problem - it may move it around, drive it underground or whatever but it does not actually solve it. A more regular police presence on the street will undoubtedly reduce the more obvious manifestations but without every other agency working together with a "joined-up" approach it will not solve the problem.

And "aggressive policing" has other, unwanted side-effects, not least of which is further dividing police and public.

 

[electicavenue]

but without every other agency working together with a "joined-up" approach it will not solve the problem.

The question then is who is it down to to do the joining up?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

That is my point. Aggressive policing does not actually solve the problem - it may move it around, drive it underground or whatever but it does not actually solve it. A more regular police presence on the street will undoubtedly reduce the more obvious manifestations but without every other agency working together with a "joined-up" approach it will not solve the problem.

And "aggressive policing" has other, unwanted side-effects, not least of which is further dividing police and public.

I agree, but I can also recall a time when drug use was widespread, but it wasn't done on the streets, in plain sight of passersby, and you didn't get the feeling that the cops had conceded the streets to the criminals.

It's a huge societal problem, and perhaps it shouldn't be forced indoors and out of sight, but the apprehension of lawlessness that random and wholesale drug sales and use on the streets, can't be a good thing either.

 

[detective-boy]

The question then is who is it down to to do the joining up?

The only body with power over all the relevant agencies is central government. They passed the Crime and Disorder Act, they should ensure that it is applied.

 

[detective-boy]

... but the apprehension of lawlessness that random and wholesale drug sales and use on the streets, can't be a good thing either.

That is very true. One part of the New York approach which I support entirely is the "Broken Windows" theory which postulates that if you leave a broken window (for instance) then it is only a matter of time before more appear. The visible presence of drug dealers / users on the streets has a similar effect.

My point is not that it should not be addressed, nor that anyone but the police should do it, but that on it's own it cannot and will not work and eventually the police will give up, both individually and as an organisation. I believe that may be happening now.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

Also in New York, Guiliani didn't have the CPS to contend with. As I understand it, three undercover cops have to be wired up, buy drugs off street dealers on three different occasions for the CPS to even consider a prosecution, and if the dealer gets sent down, the many-headed hyrda-ness of the drugs trade means someone else just takes the gaoled dealer's place........

 

[netbob]

The only body with power over all the relevant agencies is central government. They passed the Crime and Disorder Act, they should ensure that it is applied.

Maby if I tell Kate Hoey that its foxes selling the crack she might be interested?

 

[Giles]

Bit of a Daily Mail solution! I dont think being a crackhead is a path many people take out of choice.

Displacement is an issue, but not an argument to do nothing. It should be about making fast lowcost changes wherever there is a problem. e.g. If soemone boarded up the doorways into Brady's people wouldnt be able to deal there anymore.

I don't think people start off thinking "I want to become a fucked-up addict". But once they are, they are just human rats that manage to inflict all kinds of harm on everyone around them, in terms of violent robberies, other theft and crime, general disgusting behaviour, making whole areas unsafe and unpleasant to live in. They are just one big negative. OK, in the real world, mass shooting is out of the question, but maybe they should just round them all up and take them to some sort of camp somewhere and leave them there, crackless, until they sort themselves out.

Giles..


Giles..

 

[detective-boy]

As I understand it, three undercover cops have to be wired up, buy drugs off street dealers on three different occasions for the CPS to even consider a prosecution, and if the dealer gets sent down, the many-headed hyrda-ness of the drugs trade means someone else just takes the gaoled dealer's place........

There is no actual legal requirement for this level of evidence, but the experience of the police is that for them to be pretty sure of a conviction two test purchases, followed by a third one with immediate arrest is advisable. The main problem is that even after all that the chances are they will be back on the streets within less than 12 months, the majority even sooner than that.

The laws of supply and demand make it inevitable that someone else follows them. Many street level dealers are themselves addicts, dealing to fund their own habit and it is a relatively easy way of doing so. The others are motivated by the fact that there are HUGE amounts of money to be made by dealing, compared to any legitimate employment available to them. Operation Welwyn in Kings Cross when I was there twelve years ago ran for over a year. Each phase took a couple of months and led to the arrest and conviction of something like 30 or 40 busy dealers. Every time they were replaced within days and, by the end of the third phase those arrested on the first phase were beginning to reappear. Hundreds of thousands - probably millions - of pounds worth of police, CPS, Court and prison time and resources had absolutely no real lasting effect as far as the public in the area were concerned.

Again going back to my original point, the police can, and do carry out lots of operations against street level drug dealing and use but alone they cannot have any lasting effect.

 

[phildwyer]

Operation Welwyn in Kings Cross when I was there twelve years ago ran for over a year. Each phase took a couple of months and led to the arrest and conviction of something like 30 or 40 busy dealers. Every time they were replaced within days and, by the end of the third phase those arrested on the first phase were beginning to reappear. Hundreds of thousands - probably millions - of pounds worth of police, CPS, Court and prison time and resources had absolutely no real lasting effect as far as the public in the area were concerned.

Huh? I stay in King's Cross when I'm in London, and I can tell you without a shadow of doubt that the area is *much* less skanky now than it was 10 or 15 years ago. Almost a Giuliani-style transformation, in fact. What caused that if it wasn't the policing?

 

[ed99]

don't quote me on this but here are some answers i seem to recall being given here at the ritzy to some of the issues raised in this thread.

- i believe there used to be grilles or there was talk of having grilles (is that the right spelling?) but there were objections from neighbours saying that they were too loud when being shut / put up after closing time (which is around 2am at the weekends.

- having ritzy staff move on / deal with crack takers is not really ideal. sorry, but if the police aren't dealing with it we can't really expect our staff to go and move on or engage with people in that state on a regular basis.

if you want i will get some more info on this from the ritzy.
post any questions here...
ed

 

[IntoStella]

don't quote me on this but here are some answers i seem to recall being given here at the ritzy to some of the issues raised in this thread.

- i believe there used to be grilles or there was talk of having grilles (is that the right spelling?) but there were objections from neighbours saying that they were too loud when being shut / put up after closing time (which is around 2am at the weekends.

- having ritzy staff move on / deal with crack takers is not really ideal. sorry, but if the police aren't dealing with it we can't really expect our staff to go and move on or engage with people in that state on a regular basis.

if you want i will get some more info on this from the ritzy.
post any questions here...
ed

The noise of grillles being closed would be nothing compared with the crackheads yelling all night.

The biggest noise the ritzy makes is when the bar chucks its bottles out a 6 o'clock in the morning, which wakes me without fail.

I was told the reason there are no grilles is because it's against the fire regs. What if people were inside and there was a fire but someone had forgotten to unlock the grilles?

 

[poster342002]

They were there before the yuppies.

And ordinary, non-crack using, non-drug dealing Brixtoners were there before them. Not that I agree with what Giles said, mind.

 

[pootle]

And "aggressive policing" has other, unwanted side-effects, not least of which is further dividing police and public.

Didn't the crack down (sorry, couldn't thing of a more appropriate word) on the cocaine and crack dealing in the 80's by Reagan lead to higher gang tensions? And a massively increased murder rate in places like DC?

Back to Brixton though, I live further up CHL, near to Loughborough Junction station, and whilst there's nothing like the activity you poor lot have to put up with in Central Brixton, there certainly seems to be more crackheads further up the road since Operation Sleaford.

 

[Bob]

don't quote me on this but here are some answers i seem to recall being given here at the ritzy to some of the issues raised in this thread.

- i believe there used to be grilles or there was talk of having grilles (is that the right spelling?) but there were objections from neighbours saying that they were too loud when being shut / put up after closing time (which is around 2am at the weekends.

- having ritzy staff move on / deal with crack takers is not really ideal. sorry, but if the police aren't dealing with it we can't really expect our staff to go and move on or engage with people in that state on a regular basis.

if you want i will get some more info on this from the ritzy.
post any questions here...
ed

But Ritzy staff won't need to move on crack takers - all they'll have to do is simply close the grilles. Occasionally they might find somebody smoking crack there but if staff are feeling nervous they can simply come back in five minutes (or call the police).

 

[Blagsta]

I don't think people start off thinking "I want to become a fucked-up addict". But once they are, they are just human rats that manage to inflict all kinds of harm on everyone around them, in terms of violent robberies, other theft and crime, general disgusting behaviour, making whole areas unsafe and unpleasant to live in. They are just one big negative. OK, in the real world, mass shooting is out of the question, but maybe they should just round them all up and take them to some sort of camp somewhere and leave them there, crackless, until they sort themselves out.

Giles..


Giles..

You're a nasty piece of work. I hope we never meet.

 

[pootle]

You're a nasty piece of work. I hope we never meet.

Hopefully, he'll get a karma slap, spouting that kind of nonsense, and develop some sort of addiction, and then be left somewhere dire to "sort himself out"

 

[Mrs Magpie]

He's already got his karma slap. He's a property developer.

 

[urbanspaceman]

GLA member Val Shawcross is interested in this issue

Val Shawcross (GLA member for Lambeth and Southwark) is interested in the drug dealing problem in central Brixton. Here's a message she sent last month:

"I spoke to police Supt David Zin Zan this week and he tells me that a
special operation has now begun in your immediate area to target dealers
and this is involving plain clothes police. There have been 8 arrests
this week. I would be very grateful if you would feed back to me if you
perceive there to be any changes in the area?

This is obviously an especially difficult time for the Met but they are
committing resources now and in the future to clamping down on dealers
and I am sure they appreciate community support.

Please let me know how things are outside your house in the evenings.
As you know I am due to meet the Borough Commander shortly and I would
like to be up to date on how things are."

I would be happy to compile and pass on other Urbanites' experiences. Please PM me or post publically (saying if you do/do not want the mesage passed on to VS). It would be very useful to know the street location and also your impressions of changes in the size and nature of these activities over time.

 

[netbob]

Val Shawcross (GLA member for Lambeth and Southwark) is interested in the drug dealing problem in central Brixton. Here's a message she sent last month:

Does anyone know her? If not I'll fax her and see if I can convince her to signup to the mailing list pledge

 

[ed99]

couple of responses:

intostella - i will check if the bottles go out at 6am and if so see if that can't be changed. to be honest i have only ever seem them carried out in the daytime but i am not here all the time.

ritzy staff - in one of the posts it was suggested that staff get involved. was just responding to that. we have a meeting tomorrow. will bring up the issue there and post any responses i get.
ed

 

[gaijingirl]

Sorry to "dumb down" a serious post.. but what a bloody great name!!!

" police Supt David Zin Zan QUOTE]

 

[linerider]

I don't think people start off thinking "I want to become a fucked-up addict". But once they are, they are just human rats that manage to inflict all kinds of harm on everyone around them, in terms of violent robberies, other theft and crime, general disgusting behaviour, making whole areas unsafe and unpleasant to live in. They are just one big negative. OK, in the real world, mass shooting is out of the question, but maybe they should just round them all up and take them to some sort of camp somewhere and leave them there, crackless, until they sort themselves out.

Giles..


Giles..

rounding people up and taking them to camps-what an original idea.
maybe we could call it the ultimate answer or even the final solution
what a wanker

 

[top_biller]

And "aggressive policing" has other, unwanted side-effects, not least of which is further dividing police and public.

I think it actually only divides police and the criminal. Or police and those members of the public that resent civilised order. Although I understand your point of course, I doubt you'd see me and Intostella picketing Brixton police station because we were continually having to cross the road to get out of the way of yet another crack arrest.

I'd go with the three strikes and you're out rule. Obviously that has consequences for the penal system but the law is there for a reason. Get some decent sentencing guidelines to the judiciary, plough a fraction of the defence budget into prison building (I'm thinking the Dome as good starting point) with capital punishment mandatory for a fourth offence, thereby negating the "offender replacement" theory for at least fifteen or so years.

I am, of course, joking with my last point.

I appreciate there are health and safety guidelines for the fire escapes, but there must be a solution.

I leave you to ponder the image of a stampede of cinema goers fleeing a false fire alarm at the Ritzy only to crush six crack heads as the three heavy doors are swung open.

 

[gaijingirl]

I leave you to ponder the image of a stampede of cinema goers fleeing a false fire alarm at the Ritzy only to crush six crack heads as the three heavy doors are swung open.

Whilst discussing the finer points of the latest Dogme release...

 

[Mrs Magpie]

I think it actually only divides police and the criminal.

I disagree. I'm not a criminal but I've been on the sharp end of aggressive policing. It can permeate into all levels of contact with the public. Because I can appreciate the bigger picture it hasn't stopped me being a witness etc, but it easily could have.

 

[top_biller]

I disagree. I'm not a criminal but I've been on the sharp end of aggressive policing. It can permeate into all levels of contact with the public. Because I can appreciate the bigger picture it hasn't stopped me being a witness etc, but it easily could have.

Obviously without knowing the circumstances, I can't comment, but from personal experience i.e having never had any detrimental experience with the police and talking in terms of the subject matter on this thread, crack use in central Brixton and in particular on my road, I'd have no problem with some more attention being paid to those individuals who are perpetrating the incidents that we're all complaining about.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

In reply to top biller

Having my door and door frame smashed out of the wall during an armed raid where they'd actually run past the flat they were meant to be raiding and did our place over by accident. Big apologies afterwards, but they traumatised one of my kids badly.

Being accused of being difficult and obstructive and lying after a murder happened in my block by saying I wasn't actually in Brixton when it happened, which was true and proveable.

Being aggressively stopped and searched on my way to work and called a dyke.

Being threatened with arrest and sworn at when I proffered myself as a witness after a nasty assault (I was a bystander and didn't know any of those involved).

All these incidents have happened to me in Brixton.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

btw, I'm not anti-police, and realise all these incidents were caused by individuals who probably shouldn't be working with the public and do not represent the police as a whole.

 

[linerider]

i'm not in favour of aggessive policing,but more visable policing might be a start.
i was walking down rushcroft the other morning at about 2am and dispite being over 6ft and over 20 stone,i felt quite intimidated with a big group of crackheads in the ritzy fire escapes and about 8-10 more on the other side of the road.
lets face it,the problem isn't going to go away overnight,but maybe it could be moved/pushed somewhere non residential.