Counter-demonstration: Against Fascism, Against Islamism

[cockneyrebel]

How about a "Against Farrakhan, Against the KKK"?

Sounds more plausible no?

No because my point is that the term islamists covers a wide variety of people, including Malcolm X. So I'd imagine that most people would think it would have been stupid equating Malcolm X with the KKK, as the title of this demo would suggest.

"Muslims" are not more oppressed than the white working class.

But you've equated two different categories. As it goes studies show that working class muslims have some of the worst poverty rates in the country. Racism is an added oppression, so working class muslims face the problems of race and class.

I wasn't asking how likely it was that the UK far-right would back a leftist outfit in the mid-east (for opportunistic reasons), I was asking how the UK left would feel about it's international comrades joining forces with their sworn enemy.

Compare with how secular socialists in Pakistan must feel about the UK left throwing in it's lot with forces who are their sworn enemy in Pakistan.

But where have I thrown in my lot with a sworn enemy of secular socialists in Pakistan?

 

[chilango]

No because my point is that the term islamists covers a wide variety of people, including Malcolm X. So I'd imagine that most people would think it would have been stupid equating Malcolm X with the KKK, as the title of this demo would suggest.

Fair enough, if you are using Islamist in the broadest sense.

I agree the terminology being used is imprecise and therefore dangerous.

 

[chilango]

But you've equated two different categories. As it goes studies show that working class muslims have some of the worst poverty rates in the country. Racism is an added oppression, so working class muslims face the problems of race and class.

Yes. Deliberately, to draw out the importance of class.


No!!!!!

Muslims are NOT a race.

 

[cockneyrebel]

Muslims are NOT a race.

Of course you're right, but it's become racism in reality. Just like bigotry against Jews is racism.

 

[chilango]

Course its linked to racism.

No doubt white racists are often islamophobic.

But. y'see, again, our use of terminology is inadequate.

fascism, islamism, racism etc. don`t quite do justice to the forces engaged here.

Maybe we should either

agree what these terms mean.

or come up with new ones.

Otherwise our arguments will be misinterpreted by all sides.

 

[treelover]

I thought i had led such stupid student politics behind such as what DU comes out with, now I am subject to the same sort of dangerous nonsense from the same sort of characters i spent ages making sure i avoided at college.

Victory to Hamas in Palestine, is it now, trots,

Really, anything I say will just take away from the comedy
Reply With Quote

 

[belboid]

you haven't mentioned the welfare reform bill for a whole post, what are you, some kind of tory revisionist now?

 

[treelover]

I mention it frequently because sadly no one including the far left does not, is that not a problem Belboid?, that 2 million people plus don't seem to count in the hierarchy of oppression. I don't campaign on such issues for egotistical reasons,ideology, etc, not sure if the massed ranks of the far left can say the same!

 

[belboid]

your far left obsession is sad and pathetic tho. no attempt to analyse why anything might be the way it is, just glib meaningless whinges

 

[In Bloom]

most people would think it would have been stupid equating Malcolm X with the KKK

Or, indeed, Malcom X with Omar Bakri Mohammed.

 

[durruti02]

......But if you're a member of the BNP you are a member of fascist organisation. If you're an islamist you're not necessarily a member of any organisation and you're not necessarily a fundamentalist. Clearly the title of this demo insinuates that islamists are the same as fascists.......

(qoute taken out of post yesterday)

i think this is wrong CR .. you have used differrent rules for the two groups you comment on ..

a bnp supporter on a demo is also not neccessarrily a member OR a facist ( though they might be ) OR in fact a racist ( though it is very likely)

an islamist is not neccessarily in a group .. true .. nor necessaryly a fundamentalist .. but it is very likely ..

but they DO hold a clear and absolute world view that to socialists/humanists is deeply reactionary in terms of their attitudes to women and much else .. in which ways they are actually far to the right if the BNP ..

that said how you confront this relegion has to be clever .. in a period when true or perceived they feel under attack ..

 

[durruti02]

your far left obsession is sad and pathetic tho. no attempt to analyse why anything might be the way it is, just glib meaningless whinges

belboid that is unfair and unneccessary .. and does nothing for the boards .. and please note treelover is ASKING we join him/her in debating that issue .. and people dont

 

[durruti02]

Nothing wrong with criticising zionism or islamism, but you wouldn't say that all zionists are fascists, would you.

er actually many on the left have done so .. from closet antisemites to the Lennie Brenners who did much reserach in to the link between zionism and fascists in the 3ts and 4ts .. while a million times more progresive than any talibanistan israel especially in th e4ts and fifties had many similarities with facism .. coporatism - one state - war like etc etc

but yes they would be wrong to say ALL zionists .. as it may be wrong to say ALL islamists ..

 

[durruti02]

Clearly the title of this demo insinuates that islamists are the same as fascists.

i do not think that is right CR ..

it will be taken as that by many but it actually says "against" both ..

NOT that they are the same ..

 

[belboid]

it certainly implies they are equivalent, which is equally bollocks

 

[cockneyrebel]

i do not think that is right CR ..

it will be taken as that by many but it actually says "against" both ..

NOT that they are the same ..

As belboid says my point is that it implies that they are equivalent, which is bollox. Would anyone really say that Malcolm X was the same as a fascist? Which is the point, I can't point to anyone in the fascist movement who I would hold up as any way progressive, but I would say there was a progressive aspect to Malcolm X.

You have to look at things as a whole. I wouldn't give a fuck about smashing a BNP demo and battering people on it and I think that would achieve results. On the other hand going around the country smashing up meetings of islamists wouldn't be a good thing in my view. However, having said that the main thing in both cases is to build a viable left alternative.

Also I think you have to be careful with language. People on here talking about things as if they're in ivory towers might say there is an exact meaning to the word "islamism" but in reality a lot of people seeing "Against Fascism, Against Islamism" will just take it as saying you're against muslims.

but they DO hold a clear and absolute world view that to socialists/humanists is deeply reactionary in terms of their attitudes to women and much else .. in which ways they are actually far to the right if the BNP ..

Gotta say that this is a ridiculous statement. Firstly fascists would happily throw socialists in concentration camps if they ever got the chance. Also fascists attitude towards women is deeply conservative and sexist.

To me, whatever the intricicies of language, this kinda demo is fucking idiotic in my view and not much better than the class war tactic of throwing an ephigy of mohammed on a bonfire.

 

[Jean-Luc]

I think you have to be careful with language. People on here talking about things as if they're in ivory towers might say there is an exact meaning to the word "islamism" but in reality a lot of people seeing "Against Fascism, Against Islamism" will just take it as saying you're against muslims.

Perhaps, but what slogan would you use to call for a demo to protest against those political groups that want to impose a totalitarian Islamic State in place of political democracy ((assuming you do want to protest against this)?
PS Does anyone know what happened at the demo?

 

[treelover]

While Islamic fanatics just behead their prisoners such as Ken Bigley, Daniel Perl, and some kill women in 'honour' killings


So is it Victory to Hamas, 'the age of justice and Islamic rule has arrived'

Firstly fascists would happily throw socialists in concentration camps if they ever got the chance. Also fascists attitude towards women is deeply conservative and sexist.

 

[cockneyrebel]

While Islamic fanatics just behead their prisoners such as Ken Bigley, Daniel Perl, and some kill women in 'honour' killings


So is it Victory to Hamas, 'the age of justice and Islamic rule has arrived'

What are you talking about? Where did I say "victory to Hamas"? My point was that it's ridiculous to say that islamism is "far to the right" of fascism on the issue of "women and much else".

Fascism couldn't get any worse in terms of the treatment it has handed out in the past 100 years.

I mean are you seriously gonna say someone like Malcolm X was "far to the right" of fascism on various issues?

That's not to say that I think that groups like Hamas are progressive, they're not, but to compare all islamists to fascists and even say they are far to the right of fascists many issues is ridiculous.

 

[treelover]

In one area, Hamas are very progressive and that is the area of social welfare: housing, education, even food is provided by their support organsiations. In avery poor country with no real welfare state, that must aid their popularity, then they go and spoil it all by attacking Israel, executing people on the streets, etc.

 

[cockneyrebel]

You're right about their social welfare stuff getting them support, especially when it's contrast to the totally corrupt wankers in Fatah.

My ex went out to Palestine about three years back and said that it was unbelievable how rich Fatah members were in the midst of so much poverty in Gaza. She said they were really rich even by western standards (she also said most ISM members were middle class tossers but that's another story).

To be honest I don't give a fuck what happens to Fatah leaders after how they've been.

then they go and spoil it all by attacking Israel

What do you mean by this? If you mean it's not a good tactic to attack Israeli civilians I'd say fair enough. But why shouldn't they attack the IDF or Israeli militias/settlers? Israel will never ever let the Palestinians have their own country and if the Palestinians fight back then all the best to them.

Israel is an apartheid state propped up by US imperialism. The sooner it is overthrown the better, like the apartheid regime in South Africa.

 

[Taxamo Welf]

i haven't read the whole thread, or indeed any of it: a few points anyway.

The idea for a counter demo was swiftly retracted by the people who wrote that callout on some good advice. The day panned out pretty much as the nay-sayers had predicted; a small number of fronters (30 ish) separted by a barriers from a large number of Muslim protestors. The barriers surrounded by groups entirely, on the opposite side of the road from 10 downing street, in the purpose built demo cage. The number of police was phenomenal, and siumply walking down whitehall was a searchable offense. The protestors and the fascists had their pictures taken by a stream of tourists and a the dedicated FIT team.

I'm not sure if the days events prove that it was or was not a 'honeytrap', its harder to identify leaders of a (sort of) new group than it is to identify the front and pals - it was definitely them i think.

You can go back to argusing about Islam now. How this thread became a crass appraisal of the Hamas party i have no idea.

 

[marcvallee]

a few pics from the day:

http://www.marcvallee.co.uk/stories_islamist_fascist_protests.html

 

[treelover]

media blackout on this?

 

[JoePolitix]

a few pics from the day:

http://www.marcvallee.co.uk/stories_islamist_fascist_protests.html

Awesome photos.

 

[marcvallee]

media blackout on this?

I did file my images to most uk pic/news desks. A few magazines may pick them up later in the week. I found one thing on commentisfree.guardian.co.uk before the protest by Inayat Bunglawala (Assistant Secretary-General at the Muslim Council of Britain) but that was about it. So you may well be right on that one.

Awesome photos.

Thank you.

 

[Geoff kerr-morg]

I have just read a great article in the American International Socialist Review entitled Islam and Islamaphobia by Professor Deepa Kumar of Rutgers University. She shatters the myths about Islam and the west looking at five key myths.

1. Islam is a monolithic religion
2 Islam is a uniquely sexist religion
3 The "Muslim mind" is incapable of rationality and science
4 Islam is inherently violent
5 The west spreads democracy, Islam spawns terrorism.

I urge people to read this really good article
http://www.isreview.org/issues/52/islamophobia.shtml

"If today the main political forces in the Middle East are Islamist parties and organizations, it is in no small part due to U.S. foreign policy. The U.S. played a key role in marginalizing secular and leftist forces, thereby creating the political vacuum that Islamist groups would come to fill. "
Proessor Deepa Kumar

 

[Geoff kerr-morg]

I came across this called Reel Bad Arabs How Hollywood Vilifies by A People by Jack Shaheen here is a short video clip about the film.

The left shouldn't be joining in

 

[kropotkin]

The difference being that you can usually give white working class people a cold, wet, metaphorical slap around the face with the fact that they are not more oppressed than Muslims.

haven't read past this post, but it is so amazing I thought it needed quoting.

 

[durruti02]

Awesome photos.

i think the photos prove ( not scientifically of course ) that these people are peas in a rather odd pod ..