Counter-demonstration: Against Fascism, Against Islamism

[belboid]

fair enough, lazy writing on my part

 

[chilango]

OK.

But it is important.

Too often race and religion are conflated, and ethnic identitiy simplified to skin colour.

Particularly in this area this is a dangerous and highly misleading mistake to make.

 

[N_igma]

shouldn't have, but always has. Liberation theologists in Central America, tony Benn, Ben Bella - all bad?

I'm talking about countries being ruled under religious leaders. It set Europe back 1500 years, we don't need it anywhere in this world.

 

[obowan]

It's a moot point, religion has no place in politics whatsoever.

Surely politcs should involve anything that reflects the mood of the people, and as religion is pretty important [not necessarily right] in many contries then surely it should have a place in politics...

 

[N_igma]

Surely politcs should involve anything that reflects the mood of the people, and as religion is pretty important [not necessarily right] in many contries then surely it should have a place in politics...

The "mood" of the people (especially when it comes to religion) is dictated by those in power. Religion is used as a tool of control over the population, it stops cultural/social/economic/technological progression when implemented as a political system. It's just as dangerous as fascism if you ask me.

 

[Das Uberdog]

or


Question; what do you think the effect upon the white working class community is, when Lefties denounce 'racists' with whom they share certain ideological sympathies, as a result of their oppression?

Y'see?


Oppression is a not a Jeux sans Frontieres style "joker" that you can play to get out of trouble.

The difference being that you can usually give white working class people a cold, wet, metaphorical slap around the face with the fact that they are not more oppressed than Muslims.

 

[JHE]

There's a difference between Islam and Islamism. Islamism is a load of dangeorus ole balls.

Islam is the load of old bollocks. What's more, Islam is, and from its inception has been, a fighting movement - a militant, expansionist, political, legal and military system. It is not just a system of piety. Islam conquers. Islam rules. Islam enslaves.

Islamism is the term used to refer to the modern movement of Muslims who insist on taking Islam seriously and so take their politics from Islam.

There are, thank goodness, Muslims who, despite their religious affiliation, look to other sets of ideas for their politics.

Islamism is growing. In other words, Islam is resurgent. Socialism and nationalism are discredited. That leaves the religious leaders - the imams, the mullahs or whatever the shits are called here or there and other Islamic ideologues - with increasing credibility to promote sharia.

Islamophilia doesn't help. Poor old Dhimmi Dog and the Social Workers and other daft Islamophiles, including our silly but generous rulers paying Mozzygeld, encourage Islamism. The silly creatures wave their pom-poms, shamelessly supporting medieval shite: limb-chopping, apostate-killing, women-bashing, book-burning, shroud-wearing, gay-hanging, jihad-promoting...

 

[cockneyrebel]

In Bloom it's not a matter of chest beating, I just think for the reasons Belboid has pointed out that this demo isn't a good idea and the title is even worse.

Put it this way. Malcolm X during most of the civil rights demos in the USA could have been described as an Islamist. Would you have thought a demo saying:

Against Malcolm X and his followers, Against the KKK

would have been a good idea?

This is a crap idea for a demo and not that much better than Class Wars idea.

 

[Jean-Luc]

I think some people here, eg Das "We're All Hezbollah" Uberdog, are using the same tactic to reply to criticism of "if you criticise Islamism that means your anti-people of Muslim background" as the Zionists who say "if you criticise Zionism, that's means you're anti-semitic". Both of which are bollocks.
Anyway, here's another contribution to this debate from an interview on Danish TV with Maryam Namazie of the Workers Communist Party of Iran:
"Martin Breum: I just want to ask you one last question. The manifesto [against Islamism] is also very hard on those who do not stand up as firmly as you do? Why is that necessary?
Maryam Namazie: Well because I think that when you see a lot of left and progressive groups apologising for the political Islamic movement and trying to silence any form of criticism of Islam and the political Islamic movement as "racism" or "Islamophobic" - which is not the case - we need to say that they have a duty, that everybody has a duty to stand up to this movement. Civilized humanity demands it and deserves it. The people in the Middle East, just like people in Europe, deserve to live according to universal standards, to the highest standards that have been fought for in the 21st century. They deserve it everywhere." (see http://www.wpiran.org/English/WPI Briefing/194wpibriefing.pdf for full manifesto and full interview).
Right on! Sock it to 'em Maryam.

 

[dash_two]

Islamism in European countries definitely has colonising ambitions as well as proselytising ones.

 

[likesfish]

political islam really really bad idea if your a woman, or gay not a muslim or drink beer or fly a kite
so in the middle ages you had to pay extra taxes if you weren't muslim (that was highly liberal for the middle ages but lifes moved on a bit since then )
I see no benefit for having any islamic influence in uk public life yes muslims live here buts so do catholics and nazi's and I would'nt want the pope of griffin having any say over public or private life

 

[cockneyrebel]

Islamism in European countries definitely has some colonising ambitions.

Even if some sections of Islamism did have those ambitions until the cows come home, the fact is those ambitions are never gonna get anywhere.

I think some people here, eg Das "We're All Hezbollah" Uberdog, are using the same tactic to reply to criticism of "if you criticise Islamism that means your anti-people of Muslim background" as the Zionists who say "if you criticise Zionism, that's means you're anti-semitic". Both of which are bollocks.

Nothing wrong with criticising zionism or islamism, but you wouldn't say that all zionists are fascists, would you.

 

[cockneyrebel]

I see no benefit for having any islamic influence in uk public life yes muslims live here buts so do catholics and nazi's and I would'nt want the pope of griffin having any say over public or private life

What are you talking about? What influence does islam have in the UK, say compared to the Church of England? Fuck all. And it never will have any significant influence.

Also comparing anyone who is religious to a nazi. Yeah, good idea.

 

[asbestos]

But the fact is that not all Islamists are Islamic fundamentalists and no they don't wall want to kill their opponents

And not all BNP supporters are fascists that want to kill their opponents.

 

[dash_two]

Even if some sections of Islamism did have those ambitions until the cows come home, the fact is those ambitions are never gonna get anywhere.

The crescent flag certainly won't be flying over Downing Street any time soon. But the more lucid Islamists might hope for it flying over a few town halls within the next two to three decades.

 

[asbestos]

What are you talking about? What influence does islam have in the UK, say compared to the Church of England? Fuck all. And it never will have any significant influence.

Political Islamism has had quite a significant influence for many London workers.

 

[cockneyrebel]

And not all BNP supporters are fascists that want to kill their opponents.

Because of course all islamists want to kill their opponents, don't they

And the BNP is a fascist organisation, so yeah if you are a member of the BNP you are a member of fascist organisation.

The crescent flag certainly won't be flying over Downing Street any time soon. But the more lucid Islamists might hope for it flying over a few town halls within the next two to three decades.

Do me a favour, yeah I can really see it flying over town halls in the next two to three decades........because Islamist groups are doing so well in the polls aren't they.

Political Islamism has had quite a significant influence for many London workers.

If you're referring to the bombings, that doesn't mean that islamism has any significant influence in this country. Unless you think every nut who goes out with a bomb has their hands on state power.

 

[poster342002]

The UK fash are unlikely to ever take power in the middle east. So, how would the trots feel if some notionally-leftist group out there started giving and recieving support from one of the UK fash groups with the spurious justification that they "wouldn't ever take power in this/that mid-east nation"?

 

[dash_two]

Do me a favour, yeah I can really see it flying over town halls in the next two to three decades........because Islamist groups are doing so well in the polls aren't they.

I'm not making a prediction about what will happen, just saying that's what Islamists might hope for as a result of demographic change in some areas. That's not an unreasonable speculation when you consider how frequently marginal political groupings turn to the comforting idea of an independent enclave or zone where they can enjoy unrestricted influence.

 

[asbestos]

Because of course all islamists want to kill their opponents, don't they

Are you an idiot? you said

But the fact is that not all Islamists are Islamic fundamentalists and no they don't wall want to kill their opponents

Hence me pointing out that not all BNP supporters are fascists, and no they don't all want to kill their opponents.

If you're referring to the bombings, that doesn't mean that islamism has any significant influence in this country. Unless you think every nut who goes out with a bomb has their hands on state power.

I'm not the kind of nut that thinks state power is what is the most significant influence on people in this country, I would say it had more to do with the actions/beliefs of my fellow citizens.

 

[kyser_soze]

Even if some sections of Islamism did have those ambitions until the cows come home, the fact is those ambitions are never gonna get anywhere.

You know what, I bet the Romans said that about Xtianity...

 

[cockneyrebel]

The UK fash are unlikely to ever take power in the middle east. So, how would the trots feel if some notionally-leftist group out there started giving and recieving support from one of the UK fash groups with the spurious justification that they "wouldn't ever take power in this/that mid-east nation"?

Not really a comparison, I think you're stretching logic to its limits. Leftist groups in the middle east getting backing from the BNP?! My point is that firstly you can't say that all islamists are fundamentalists and also that saying all islamists are fascists is ridiculous.

I'm not making a prediction about what will happen, just saying that's what Islamists might hope for as a result of demographic change in some areas. That's not an unreasonable speculation when you consider how frequently marginal political groupings turn to the comforting idea of an independent enclave or zone where they can enjoy unrestricted influence.

Fair enough. But I can't see it happening personally. Firstly I doubt there is hardly any borough/council in the country that is likely to become majority muslim any time soon and that's coupled with the fact that the vast majority of muslims don't support islamist groups.

Hence me pointing out that not all BNP supporters are fascists, and no they don't all want to kill their opponents.

But if you're a member of the BNP you are a member of fascist organisation. If you're an islamist you're not necessarily a member of any organisation and you're not necessarily a fundamentalist. Clearly the title of this demo insinuates that islamists are the same as fascists.

Also as said would any leftist think that a demo about

Against Malcolm X, Against the KKK

would have been a good idea?

I'm not the kind of nut that thinks state power is what is the most significant influence on people in this country, I would say it had more to do with the actions/beliefs of my fellow citizens.

Of course state power is the most significant influence, it's a nonsense to say otherwise. Any group or individual nut can go out and attack or bomb people given enough will power. But in terms of real political influence on society as a whole islamists will get nowhere in this country.

You know what, I bet the Romans said that about Xtianity...

Maybe you're right. Run for the hills, the islamists are coming!

 

[poster342002]

I wasn't asking how likely it was that the UK far-right would back a leftist outfit in the mid-east (for opportunistic reasons), Iwas asking how the UK left would feel about it's international comrades joining forces with their sworn enemy.

Compare with how secular socialists in Pakistan must feel about the UK left throwing in it's lot with forces who are their sworn enemy in Pakistan.

 

[cockneyrebel]

But who said anything about throwing their lot behind fundamentalists? Firstly fundamentalist groups in this country are tiny and aren't supported by anyone beyond a couple of hundred people. Secondly I have no problems with people criticising fundamentalists, but I do have a problem with people saying all islamists are the same as fascists.

And what would you have thought of a Against Malcolm X, Against KKK demo?

 

[asbestos]

Run for the hills, the islamists are coming!

They are already here.

 

[chilango]

But who said anything about throwing their lot behind fundamentalists? Firstly fundamentalist groups in this country are tiny and aren't supported by anyone beyond a couple of hundred people. Secondly I have no problems with people criticising fundamentalists, but I do have a problem with people saying all islamists are the same as fascists.

And what would you have thought of a Against Malcolm X, Against KKK demo?

How about a "Against Farrakhan, Against the KKK"?

Sounds more plausible no?

Interestingly, as I`m sure you know, some NOI, Black seperatist muslim types have entered in dialogue with white seperatists before now...it's not unthinkable that some kinda similar moves may happen again.

 

[chilango]

The difference being that you can usually give white working class people a cold, wet, metaphorical slap around the face with the fact that they are not more oppressed than Muslims.

Bollocks.

And dangerous bollocks come to that.

"Muslims" are not more oppressed than the white working class.

There is a current of islamophobia gaining stregth at the mo'.

This is not translated into cold, hard, material oppression for the entire Muslim faith in Britian.

There are plenty of Muslims who lead way more comfortable lives than plenty of working class whites.

So what?

To single out one community and prioritise their problems as being above all the others is divisive, racist bollocks.

Muslims come in many shapes, colours and forms and classes. it is ridiculous to counterpose them with the "white community" (not that there is such a thing).

Sure, oppose Islamophobia if you want, but to place that on the pinnacle of a hierachy of oppression is:

a) clearly factually wrong
b) underming solidarity and working class unity
c) typical liberal middle class guilty nonsense

 

[poster342002]

But who said anything about throwing their lot behind fundamentalists? Firstly fundamentalist groups in this country are tiny and aren't supported by anyone beyond a couple of hundred people. Secondly I have no problems with people criticising fundamentalists, but I do have a problem with people saying all islamists are the same as fascists.

And what would you have thought of a Against Malcolm X, Against KKK demo?

Seeing as how your reply completely avoids answering the hypothetical question I was posing, I'll ask again:

I wasn't asking how likely it was that the UK far-right would back a leftist outfit in the mid-east (for opportunistic reasons), I was asking how the UK left would feel about it's international comrades joining forces with their sworn enemy.

Compare with how secular socialists in Pakistan must feel about the UK left throwing in it's lot with forces who are their sworn enemy in Pakistan.

 

[belboid]

what's the point of asking a hypothetical that wont ever happen? you're normally against that kinda thing.

 

[In Bloom]

The difference being that you can usually give white working class people a cold, wet, metaphorical slap around the face with the fact that they are not more oppressed than Muslims.

Really, anything I say will just take away from the comedy