Seriously though, I don't see what's wrong with being opposed to political religion of all stripes. Fundamentalism might have been a slightly better term to use, but this whole thing smacks of quibbling over a title rather than address some awkward issues around the left's relationship to Islam.
Counter-demonstration: Against Fascism, Against Islamism
- Thread starter cockneyrebel
- Start date
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Political religion is scarier than religion on it's own since mandate to rule and create law comes from God ,making every trangression a sin, meaning opposition is against God...with co-commitant extremes of punishment permissable because you aren't just opposing shite laws, you're opposing a lawmaking process that's endorsed by God.
I was also under the impression that 'Islamism' was a generally accepted term for this strain of the faith - altho all told that's probably not necessarily going to be apperciated by a great many people...
I was also under the impression that 'Islamism' was a generally accepted term for this strain of the faith - altho all told that's probably not necessarily going to be apperciated by a great many people...
chilango
Ha! Ha! Armageddon
I always understood Islamism to be distinct from Islam.
...so attacking Islamism does not equate to attacking Muslims.
Also, I note DU is back with his line about the particular oppression that Islamists face (or Muslims? I'm not sure. The point needs clarification).
As an aside I`ve been reading the dreadful "The World is Flat" and the author has coined the term Islamo-Leninists to describe the current wave of political fundies in Islam.
...so attacking Islamism does not equate to attacking Muslims.
Also, I note DU is back with his line about the particular oppression that Islamists face (or Muslims? I'm not sure. The point needs clarification).
As an aside I`ve been reading the dreadful "The World is Flat" and the author has coined the term Islamo-Leninists to describe the current wave of political fundies in Islam.
grogwilton
Well-Known Member
FFS 'Islamism' is such a catch all buzz word anyway, its got about as many interpretations as the word Socialism.
It stretches form Al Qaeda types to groups similar to the German Christian Democrats who currently run Germany.
IE. a lot of poeple call themselves 'Islamists' who see their demands as 'Islamic' which most westerners wouldnt really consider Islamic. One example being a Sudanese 'Islamist' group which considers european governments to be the most 'Islamic' because to quote one member: "European governments do what the people want because if the people are unhappy, the governments have to go, that is Islamic."
It stretches form Al Qaeda types to groups similar to the German Christian Democrats who currently run Germany.
IE. a lot of poeple call themselves 'Islamists' who see their demands as 'Islamic' which most westerners wouldnt really consider Islamic. One example being a Sudanese 'Islamist' group which considers european governments to be the most 'Islamic' because to quote one member: "European governments do what the people want because if the people are unhappy, the governments have to go, that is Islamic."
Sort of like the BNP then?cockneyrebel said:
The real danger with fascists and fundamentalists isn't that they might take power and start offing people, it's just not going to happen. The problem is that they all are part of a destructive, anti-working class communalism that is on the rise in the UK.
You say we shouldn't slag off Islamism in case we alienate Muslims who are sympathetic to it, the exact argument could be made against attacking any number of things, from fascism to police carrying tasers.
Edit: my mistake, CR didn't say that, it was Das Uberdog.
chilango
Ha! Ha! Armageddon
Das Uberdog said:
or
Question; what do you think the effect upon the white working class community is, when Lefties denounce 'racists' with whom they share certain ideological sympathies, as a result of their oppression?
Y'see?
Oppression is a not a Jeux sans Frontieres style "joker" that you can play to get out of trouble.
N_igma
Epistemic nuisance
cockneyrebel said:
No it's not, both ideologies are dangerous to any normal functioning society.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamism
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
N_igma said:
Both shit but with a different gravy.
Islamism and Islam
CR,
I'm not for a moment assocaiting myself with this demo, but just to point out that "Against Fascism, Against Islamism" is not equivalent to "Against Fascism, Against Judaism".
The difference is that it says "Islamism" not "Islam".
Islamism is a political ideology commited to installing societal laws created 1500 years ago in pre-feudal society and applying them to today.
Islam is a personal belief system; as is Judaism.
CR,
I'm not for a moment assocaiting myself with this demo, but just to point out that "Against Fascism, Against Islamism" is not equivalent to "Against Fascism, Against Judaism".
The difference is that it says "Islamism" not "Islam".
Islamism is a political ideology commited to installing societal laws created 1500 years ago in pre-feudal society and applying them to today.
Islam is a personal belief system; as is Judaism.
cockneyrebel said:
KeyboardJockey
Clowns to the Left of me
belboid said:
I under stand that 'Islamism' can encompass progressive readings of the Qu'ran / Hadith / Sharia and I've met some LGBT Muslims who have done this and have done it with the background of the idea of a Muslim universe view. In a similar way to what Liberal Jews and Christians have done with the Torah and the christian testament.
However, are these progressive Islamists able to deal or be dealt with non violently by other Islamists of a different persuaision and also what is the general level of acceptance of free choice in faith by other Islamists.
I'm not taking issue with the fact that there are progressive Islamists because I know there are progressive Orthodox Jews and Christians who occupy a similar ground so to speak in their faiths but what proportion of Islamists are progressive Islamists?
The Church of England is a good analogy here; Although the leadership and a proportion of the church is open and accepting the greater number are now the 'burn the batty boys' etc bigots.
The issue I have is pointing to 8 or 10 progressive authorities who call themselves Islamists but turning a blind eye to the ones that those on the left don't want to see.
And like I said earlier, I do think a less general word would have been better, but that doesn't make CR's suggesting that by attacking political Islam we are somehow bolstering the right any less dishonest.belboid said:
Did any of the whining trots bother to actually read the bloody call out? Or are you still beating your chests in rage over some slightly imprecise language in the title?
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Yeah, its a bit shit. Looking over the britishoppression site, there is no mention I can see of their seeking 'to fight for the establishment of Sharia law [throughout Britain]'. I can well believe it is part of their overall agenda, but it isnt actually stated as such. That makes me a tad suspicious of the rest of it. One bit of lazy writing is okay, (at least) two, and it's not unreasonable to start getting a bit suspicious.In Bloom said:
Also, I do wonder how what will be a very probably be an overwhelmingly white counter-demo would go down amongst the demonstrators - especially as the ostensible reason for the demo is not entirely unreasonable (as the call out accepts)
chilango
Ha! Ha! Armageddon
belboid said:
Whilst I'm not sure the demo is a good idea (I fail to see what it could acheive) I don't think that fear of offending al-muj types is an argument against it.
If you, however, are arguing that it may offend a broader section of society then that's a different matter...
...and surely the colour of the skin of any of the demonstrators is irrelevent - these are not demos about "race" (though no doubt its part of the fash's agenda)
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
I'm not sure all the demonstrators would be al-muj types, thats my point. And if those people who attend see them being opposed by overwhelmingly white lefites, mightn't that make them even more sympathetic to al-muj? If it was a well mixed counter-demo, that would give a different impression, I agree.chilango said:
chilango
Ha! Ha! Armageddon
Y'see there are plenty of "white" muslims...
...converts, albanians, Kosovans, Bosnians, North Africans etc.
That you probably won`t find them amongst the Islamist demonstrators proves the earlier point about the distinction between this kind of Islamism and Islam in general.
No?
...converts, albanians, Kosovans, Bosnians, North Africans etc.
That you probably won`t find them amongst the Islamist demonstrators proves the earlier point about the distinction between this kind of Islamism and Islam in general.
No?
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