Council votes to demolish Lakota
- Thread starter JTG
- Start date
Agent Sparrow
AGENT TRAITOR; fools 8 year olds
Crispy says:
megasux
more later ((C)wow)
megasux
more later ((C)wow)
I do not recall anyone suggesting that "posh flats and coffee shops could alleviate poverty and lack of opportunity". However, it was said that this development would give young BME people something to aspire to as the family who owned Lakota are not some 'johnny come lately' developers jumping on the St Pauls bandwagon but local people who have done their bit for their community. It was also said that by making the developers have a diversity policy would provide employment for local people.
I also do not think either of them said that they represent the people of St Pauls. It was made pretty clear that they were representing the BME community of Bristol.
right, so they weren't representing the people who live in the area. Thank you.
what has the past record of Lakota's owners got to do with the validity of this development?
as for giving BME people something to aspire to, that's all well and good but we all know that aspiring to status in this society does not mean that everyone can achieve that goal. Why is this development better than a community based alternative? Something that will benefit everyone in the area rather than a lucky few who manage to escape poverty? And what of the working class non-BME people in the area? What can we aspire to?
what has the past record of Lakota's owners got to do with the validity of this development?
as for giving BME people something to aspire to, that's all well and good but we all know that aspiring to status in this society does not mean that everyone can achieve that goal. Why is this development better than a community based alternative? Something that will benefit everyone in the area rather than a lucky few who manage to escape poverty? And what of the working class non-BME people in the area? What can we aspire to?
Response to JTG's last post:
OK then in the same vein neither were the objectors who all seemed to be objecting to the scheme on conservationist grounds. None of the objectors tackled any of the social and economic issues of St Pauls.
I think what the 'community leaders' were saying was that without any form of economic empowerment then the BME community will always be at the bottom of the heap. It is a fact that our community is the most economically disadvantaged and unless BME businesses are allowed to grow this will remain so. We can no longer rely on being giving scraps by the middle classes who control our society.
I accept that this scheme in itself will not immediately result in a change but it will go some way to helping as it will have a knock-on effect by inspiring BME people to take risks and take on the establisment. This was not the first battle I have watched them go through what with police raids, being called a 'place of evil' by our local comic and having to fight for a licence time and time again.
As for a community based project - I think this is unrealistic. At a time when most of the agencies in St Pauls are having their funding cut it is a pipe-dream to think that anyone would fund such a project. And more to the point the owners could not be expected to miss out on an opportunity such as this. To force them to continue running an unprofitable business could not have been a way forward. They provided proof that the property had been marketed but there were no takers. I don't know what alternatives you could suggest where they could still have made money which is what they do.
As for working class non BME people in St Pauls and what is going to inspire you I am at a lost as to what to suggest right now and will give it some thought before coming back to you.
OK then in the same vein neither were the objectors who all seemed to be objecting to the scheme on conservationist grounds. None of the objectors tackled any of the social and economic issues of St Pauls.
I think what the 'community leaders' were saying was that without any form of economic empowerment then the BME community will always be at the bottom of the heap. It is a fact that our community is the most economically disadvantaged and unless BME businesses are allowed to grow this will remain so. We can no longer rely on being giving scraps by the middle classes who control our society.
I accept that this scheme in itself will not immediately result in a change but it will go some way to helping as it will have a knock-on effect by inspiring BME people to take risks and take on the establisment. This was not the first battle I have watched them go through what with police raids, being called a 'place of evil' by our local comic and having to fight for a licence time and time again.
As for a community based project - I think this is unrealistic. At a time when most of the agencies in St Pauls are having their funding cut it is a pipe-dream to think that anyone would fund such a project. And more to the point the owners could not be expected to miss out on an opportunity such as this. To force them to continue running an unprofitable business could not have been a way forward. They provided proof that the property had been marketed but there were no takers. I don't know what alternatives you could suggest where they could still have made money which is what they do.
As for working class non BME people in St Pauls and what is going to inspire you I am at a lost as to what to suggest right now and will give it some thought before coming back to you.
I don't see how this will inspire people to take on the establishment other than by hopefully destroying what little remaining trust there is in our lords and masters and working for a society based on equality and mutual respect rather than the busted flush of trickle down economics.
If the council had any balls they'd take the initiative and seek better alternatives for the area rather than allowing it to be sold off wholesale to developers who are only interested in their profit margins. As far as Lakota's owners are concerned, nobody's forcing them to run an unprofitable business but neither is anyone forcing them to take any old offer regardless of the consequences.
I'd have more sympathy for Lakota's owners if they'd ever bothered to take some responsibility for the filth left round the streets I live on generated by their business.
If the council had any balls they'd take the initiative and seek better alternatives for the area rather than allowing it to be sold off wholesale to developers who are only interested in their profit margins. As far as Lakota's owners are concerned, nobody's forcing them to run an unprofitable business but neither is anyone forcing them to take any old offer regardless of the consequences.
I'd have more sympathy for Lakota's owners if they'd ever bothered to take some responsibility for the filth left round the streets I live on generated by their business.
Well lets just agree that our views differ on the development of St Pauls and on the way regeneration is going to happen. Lets just watch this development and others to see whether it has a beneficial or detrimental impact.
Do you think that the nightclubs in town have workers to clean up the mess left by clubbers in the surrounding streets. Have you ever noticed that after each Friday and Saturday night the city centre gets thoroughly cleaned by the Council but St Pauls and Stokes Croft do not. Perhaps it is not the owners of the club you should be blaming for the mess as they pay their business rates just like the city-centre clubs do.
Do you think that the nightclubs in town have workers to clean up the mess left by clubbers in the surrounding streets. Have you ever noticed that after each Friday and Saturday night the city centre gets thoroughly cleaned by the Council but St Pauls and Stokes Croft do not. Perhaps it is not the owners of the club you should be blaming for the mess as they pay their business rates just like the city-centre clubs do.
Regardless of who is legally responsible, there is a moral responsibility for the state of Upper York Street on a Saturday/Sunday morning imho and it wouldn't take much for the club to at least provide somewhere for the excess of beer cans and flyers to be dumped. Or even prevent the cans/bottles from being taken out of the club in the first place given that I doubt the licence is for consumption off the premises.
It's being good neighbours, I've cleared rubbish off the street myself some mornings because I have some regard for the area I live in.
It's being good neighbours, I've cleared rubbish off the street myself some mornings because I have some regard for the area I live in.
tbh I was gutted when the Moon Club closed and was replaced by Lakota.
People seem to forget the bullshit attitude that surrounded the club and some of those who ran it in the 90s which was (imo) a big factor in its demise. Am I the only one who remembers clubbers being pulled out of the queue by the clubs doorpickers because they weren't dressed cool enough or were wearing the 'wrong' shoes.
I remember people complaining of nights ruined when one of their party was turned away for not passing the fashion test from the door nazis. Are we surprised if those people never went back and then passed on word of their experiences to their mates. The clubs being dying for years mate get used to it.
So its going to become flats, great! Better to use an existing and underused building and than ploughing up more greenfield sites I say. As for community facilities, take a walk down Wilder St, St Pauls isn't exactly lacking in them. The Malcolm X Centre? The library/education centre?
You would be better off channelling your anger at the wankers who have left the Old Carriage Works derelict for years or the council officials who refuse to do anything about the traffic light situation on Sussex Place. Both of these have caused a more negative environment for the people of St Pauls than the loss of a dancefloor ever will.
As far you're pathetic comments about community leaders, perhaps you should get to know the community you are now amongst rather than slagging off their efforts eh.
"In April 1963, the well-spoken Stephenson rang the Bristol Omnibus Company to fix up a job interview for a young man he knew. Guy Bailey, he explained, was a Boy's Brigade Officer, cricket club member, full-time warehouseman and part-time student. The company assured Stephenson that there were vacancies for someone of Bailey's qualifications.
He then rang the Company back and mentioned that Bailey was a West Indian and the interview was promptly cancelled. Stephenson went to see the company's General Manager, Ian Patey, who affirmed that the company did indeed ban the employment of 'coloured labour' on the buses. With that admission, Stephenson went to the press and became the spokesperson for a picket and bus boycott."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/legacies/work/england/bristol/article_1.shtml
People seem to forget the bullshit attitude that surrounded the club and some of those who ran it in the 90s which was (imo) a big factor in its demise. Am I the only one who remembers clubbers being pulled out of the queue by the clubs doorpickers because they weren't dressed cool enough or were wearing the 'wrong' shoes.
I remember people complaining of nights ruined when one of their party was turned away for not passing the fashion test from the door nazis. Are we surprised if those people never went back and then passed on word of their experiences to their mates. The clubs being dying for years mate get used to it.
So its going to become flats, great! Better to use an existing and underused building and than ploughing up more greenfield sites I say. As for community facilities, take a walk down Wilder St, St Pauls isn't exactly lacking in them. The Malcolm X Centre? The library/education centre?
You would be better off channelling your anger at the wankers who have left the Old Carriage Works derelict for years or the council officials who refuse to do anything about the traffic light situation on Sussex Place. Both of these have caused a more negative environment for the people of St Pauls than the loss of a dancefloor ever will.
As far you're pathetic comments about community leaders, perhaps you should get to know the community you are now amongst rather than slagging off their efforts eh.
"In April 1963, the well-spoken Stephenson rang the Bristol Omnibus Company to fix up a job interview for a young man he knew. Guy Bailey, he explained, was a Boy's Brigade Officer, cricket club member, full-time warehouseman and part-time student. The company assured Stephenson that there were vacancies for someone of Bailey's qualifications.
He then rang the Company back and mentioned that Bailey was a West Indian and the interview was promptly cancelled. Stephenson went to see the company's General Manager, Ian Patey, who affirmed that the company did indeed ban the employment of 'coloured labour' on the buses. With that admission, Stephenson went to the press and became the spokesperson for a picket and bus boycott."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/legacies/work/england/bristol/article_1.shtml
with all due respect, I think I do know something about my community thanks
great, so he was involved in the Bristol bus boycott. I'm glad he was and I admire the stance he and others took
does that mean I have to bow to him on every issue that affects my neighbourhood? This development is less than 100 yards from my front door. Coming on top of all the other ones round here lately, which have without exception been aimed at young professionals rather than the working class families who have been forced to leave the area (yes I know of a few, especially in the Ashley Road), I reserve the right to object to it on the grounds that it fundamentally changes the character of the area and does not serve the needs of the people already living here.
please don't continue to lecture me on the social history of Bristol/St Pauls, it's patronising and has nothing to do with my views on this subject
great, so he was involved in the Bristol bus boycott. I'm glad he was and I admire the stance he and others took
does that mean I have to bow to him on every issue that affects my neighbourhood? This development is less than 100 yards from my front door. Coming on top of all the other ones round here lately, which have without exception been aimed at young professionals rather than the working class families who have been forced to leave the area (yes I know of a few, especially in the Ashley Road), I reserve the right to object to it on the grounds that it fundamentally changes the character of the area and does not serve the needs of the people already living here.
please don't continue to lecture me on the social history of Bristol/St Pauls, it's patronising and has nothing to do with my views on this subject
It was this statement which caused both me and Black Arab to react and in fact led to me making the effort to join this forum. You say you want a society based on equality and mutual respect so you have to understand that Paul Stephenson and Guy Reid-Bailey are extremely respected as they have done and still continue to do so much for our community. No-one is asking you to bow to them but to call them 'self appointed community leaders' was a bit rude and made you appear as if you needed a lecture.
Geri
wasn't born to follow
tbh I was gutted when the Moon Club closed and was replaced by Lakota.
People seem to forget the bullshit attitude that surrounded the club and some of those who ran it in the 90s which was (imo) a big factor in its demise. Am I the only one who remembers clubbers being pulled out of the queue by the clubs doorpickers because they weren't dressed cool enough or were wearing the 'wrong' shoes.
[/url]
I much preferred the Moon Club as well, more of an indie type club than Lakota, which appealed to the dance music crowd.
I do remember the door policy - you were pretty much guaranteed to get in if you were a woman, but they were a lot more picky with men and generally you had to fit into the look of the type of person they wanted in there.
Obviously they were a lot less choosy towards the end when it was half empty.
Gerry1time
Did a wee in Dirac's toilet
Not sure if i'm following this here. One of the justifications for selling off the Lakota is that seeing the club's owners make money from doing so will be an inspiration to the local BME community? Who will as a result of being inspired do what exactly? Mildly plausible theory, but is there any evidence for similar developments having such an effect?
Not being cynical, but used to work at the council in a policy sort of area, and this seems oddly like developers playing to the council's obsessions - diversity, ethnicity and equality - in order to get a development approved.
How exactly can they ensure the developers stick to a 'diversity policy' once the new development's open anyway?
Not being cynical, but used to work at the council in a policy sort of area, and this seems oddly like developers playing to the council's obsessions - diversity, ethnicity and equality - in order to get a development approved.
How exactly can they ensure the developers stick to a 'diversity policy' once the new development's open anyway?
Sorry, this is again extremely patronising. Nobody 'needs' a lecture, that makes you sound like a superior idiot, which I'm sure you're not.
tbh BlackArab's guff last night seemed to be a reaction to one thing rather than a consideration of everything said since.
So, building flats people can't afford - useful or utterly pointless and counter productive?
Spot on
Response to Gerry1times last post: My understanding is that this is the largest Black led property project there has ever been in Bristol and so there has been no similar development with which to compare it. This is why attended the hearing and why it may inspire other BME businesses.
I think you are being cynical. The Burgess family have always employed a significant amount of BME people at all levels in their business and I am sure will continue to do so which is the reason the COBG and Paul Stephenson got behind what they were planning to do.
Gerry1time
Did a wee in Dirac's toilet
If it does inspire local people to do well, then that of course is a good thing. If this inspiration was used as a major justification for it, then i think that's a bit more dubious, unless actual proof can be found that this has happened elsewhere. Why another part of Bristol's history had to be demolished to achieve any of this i don't know.
Traditionally there's more developer gain in demolishing and rebuilding i suppose, which BME company has been chosen to undertake the demolition and rebuilding work?
Also not sure why the council has to keep on judging people by the colour of their skin, or seeing St Paul's as an exclusively BME community, rather than a genuinely multicultural one, but that's a bigger issue.
The main justification for it at the hearing was that the owners did not wish to continue running a club and had put the property on the market for a long time with nobody coming to forward to buy it. This made them investigate developing it and they opted to demolish as it was not viable to refurbish it owing to the fact that the building was too deep with no natural light. At the first hearing this caused an argument and the council had to get an independent person to check whether their argument was justified and this person came back and agreed that to restore it was unviable.
All of the other arguments were ancillary to this main argument.
Is anybody asking you to bow down.
On your second point you may wish to look more closely at the new developments on Ashley Road seeing as you've brought them up. They are being offered on a shared ownership precisely so the working class and young professionals from the St Pauls community can take advantage.
But of course you evidently don't see young professionals as actually being from the area. Do you realise that is exactly the same mindset that used to be quite common amongst the Police and lead to people from ethnic minorities being accused of stealing their own cars because they happened to be driving BMWs or Mercs.
I have some great memories of the Moon Club and then heading off to a party afterwards at St Lukes Rd or somewhere else. Never forget one night when the DJ playing the same tune back to back (Unique 3 - The Theme) at the end and the security cut the power only for the whole dancefloor to start singing the tune and refusing to stop dancing. They eventually said fuck it and let him play the tune one more time.
Happy Days
I second that. Moving back into St Pauls next month and hoping to buy there in the next year.
Similar threads
