Council to "revitalise" Brixton

[newbie]

What viability? The market as it stands is primarily a resource for poor people, but it's not particularly thriving. tbh that's pretty much the case with all the London street markets I know of, their role is diminishing because people choose to use them less.

None of the proposals suggest to me that they're really intended to cater for the poor. Theatre spaces, cafes, shopping malls or even arts & crafts or farmers markets they're all aiming at people who aren't poor. I can't really see the street market surviving this lot (or surviving the supermarket on the doleoffice site come to that) except as a few token stalls (like Balham). The indoor market is almost dead on its feet as it is- hence all these arts projects- but might be capable of further rebranding after all the building. Somewhere like Spitalfields or Borough might provide a template.

 

[OpalFruit]

<<I was at a forum meeting a recently where Valerie Shawcross(GLA) said the at the moment TfL didnt think a new overhead station at Brixton was econmic.Therefore the proposed new overhead line in South London would pass but not stop at Brixton.I dont know about the tram.>>

Aha! that's interesting, Gramsci.

The Tram people put out a little postcard showing the route that has (finally) been agreed, and including Brixton. That's all I know about that.

 

[hayduke]

I can't really see the street market surviving this lot (or surviving the supermarket on the doleoffice site come to that) except as a few token stalls (like Balham).

What supermarket on the dole office site??? Just what Brixton needs!!!

Was Balham ever a big market on the scale of Brixton?

 

[miniGMgoit]

I have not seen the plans or ideas but it is apt that I come across this thread today after reading alot about Villa Rd, a place I was lucky enough to stay at for a while.

Wernt there "plans" back in the 60's that everybody opposed?

Are these still the same plans?

I dunno Just found it interesting that there starting all this up again.

Maybe it is time for Brixton to be tarted up.

But maybe not.

Anyone up for a baracade?

 

[newbie]

What supermarket on the dole office site??? Just what Brixton needs!!!

I think that's the plan, though I've rather lost track of it. What does Brixton need it for?


As for Balham, the street market is smaller now than it used to be, though it was never particularly huge. Has the indoor market completely gone? It's years since I remember noticing it, let alone actually using it.

 

[editor]

I have not seen the plans or ideas but it is apt that I come across this thread today after reading alot about Villa Rd, a place I was lucky enough to stay at for a while.

Wernt there "plans" back in the 60's that everybody opposed?

Are these still the same plans?

Thankfully, no one's dredged up this hideous plan again:

More info: http://www.urban75.org/brixton/features/barrier1.html

 

[miniGMgoit]

Thankfully, no one's dredged up this hideous plan again:

More info: http://www.urban75.org/brixton/features/barrier1.html

Yeah this is what I'm talking about. High rise living for the new millenium!

Aparently at the time of planning they were to be the highest residential homes outside of Boston?

So has anyone seen the plans?

What do they have in store for Capital B?

 

[Mrs Magpie]

What supermarket on the dole office site???

Supermarket? Last I heard it was going to be some 'Retail Units' plus housing.....

 

[Gramsci]

What viability? The market as it stands is primarily a resource for poor people, but it's not particularly thriving. tbh that's pretty much the case with all the London street markets I know of, their role is diminishing because people choose to use them less.

None of the proposals suggest to me that they're really intended to cater for the poor. Theatre spaces, cafes, shopping malls or even arts & crafts or farmers markets they're all aiming at people who aren't poor. I can't really see the street market surviving this lot (or surviving the supermarket on the doleoffice site come to that) except as a few token stalls (like Balham). The indoor market is almost dead on its feet as it is- hence all these arts projects- but might be capable of further rebranding after all the building. Somewhere like Spitalfields or Borough might provide a template.

However the Brixton shopping area still contains an unusually high proportion of independant retailers.Which is supposed to be one of assets the Council says it wants to build on.This is in contradiction to the Council also saying it wants Brixton to be able to compete with Croydon etc as a shopping area.

 

[OpalFruit]

So what is the recipe for making Brixton a thriving centre for residents and visitors - poor and not-so-poor? Development that doesn't further polarise rich from poor? And balck from white? (has anyone else noticed that the newer 'themed and targetted' clubs and bars are far less integrated than the old pubs?) That keeps a bouyant economy for local trades and businesses and a quality of life?
For me it's mixed development with a ferociously policed enforcement of social housing provision, space for small independent retailers, building on Brixton's strengths - the level of cultural industries, providing more 'family-friendly' affordable activity in addition to night economy (or whatever it's called), grabbing Valerie Shawcross and insisting on a linked tube/rail interchange, and whatever happens or doesn't happen to the rec, doing something serious to the horrible and frightening overground station and popes rd car park. Also bringing the school into central Brixton - and associated activities, cultural, leisure and sporting for teenagers.

 

[gaijingirl]

This is in contradiction to the Council also saying it wants Brixton to be able to compete with Croydon etc as a shopping area.

oh please God no......... not that.....

 

[guinnessdrinker]

However the Brixton shopping area still contains an unusually high proportion of independant retailers.Which is supposed to be one of assets the Council says it wants to build on.This is in contradiction to the Council also saying it wants Brixton to be able to compete with Croydon etc as a shopping area.

do they know what they're saying . I haven't been to croydon for years, but in marketing terms, i can't see what would be in it.

 

[Gramsci]

Went to the Brixton Area Forum AGM on the 23/5/2005.The meeting was given an update on the progress of "Revitalise" Brixton.Some of it is covered by earlier posts on this thread.Which is why Ive bumped this tread up-this will be an ongoing "consultation".

Some of you may have filled in the "Revitalise" Brixton leaflet or joined up on Lambeths website.A new leaflet-describing the findings so far-should be coming through your door in the next few weeks.

The senior officer put in charge of the Revitalise consultation is the same one that made such a success of consultation on Brixton Central Sq .A brief summary of what the Officer said,

There was an explanation of what "Revitalise" Brixton meant(see previous posts on this thread).This will be potentially a massive regeneration project for Brixton.The Officer sees there role as "managing tensions" within the local community.

The Council will continue to consult.Later this year it will confirm a "Development Framework".This will be a template for redevelopment.This redevelopment will be a long term project.The Framework will look at the Assets in Council ownership and how to "maximise the value of assets" for regeneration purposes(Sites mentioned are Town Hall,Brixton Rec and Popes Road carpark.There will be a meeting called in September about "Revitalise".

The Revitalise programme includes Leisure,Schools,shopping,access to Council services.The Officer stated that the Rec was costing to much to manage and the pool was "crumbling".That if people wanted the Rec to stay open they would have to pay more Council Tax.That their were talks to get Oval Theatre onto the site.

Shopping-The "Key",according to the Officer was to "build on the strengths of Brixton".That people didnt want it to become "another Hoxton" or large retailers to "dominate the environment".Though some people consulted wanted a better range of high st retailers and less "pound shops".

Brixton should become a "destination" /Brixton as a "Brand".

Creative and Cultural Industries were mentioned-Oval Theatre and the need for an Arts Centre.

The Officer stated that the Council had bought an Office Block in Vauxhall to replace offices in Clapham/Brixton.That Council services had been underfunded in the past.Now the present Administration had brought council finances into the Black it could now look at long term plans.This would be a 25 year project to be funded by "maximising community assets"(flogging them off in plain language ).

 

[Gramsci]

There were comments from the floor to the Officers piece on "Revitalise".Here is a summary,

A Market Trader(speaking on behalf of the market) said that things needed to be done now.This includes Council policy of market licensing,drug dealing in the market.That the market need support now.A long term regeneration project would be to late.

The Officer replied that to help the market asset sales would provide the funding.

Another comment from the floor was that Lambeth was the most diverse borough in the world.Their was a high proportion of ethnic minority business.That ethnic minorities and young people werent being consulted enough.

The Officer replied that the Council had talked to the Youth council and translated its documents into different languages.

A person said that their was not enough joined up thinking.What Brixton has already got needs rejuvenating for example.The "Revitalise" Brxiton would mean knocking down the Rec and replacing it with more shops/housing.When what is needed is to support already existing retail.

There were a few people from Clapham who were very unhappy about the future of Clapham baths.(One of the sites up for "maximising".)

An older Lady got up and said she rather die than see the Brixton Rec and its pool be demolished.

It was asked what happens when the Council has sold off the last of its assets.Once they have been sold thats it-its like selling the family silver.

 

[newbie]

Thanks G. You go to these meetings so the rest of us don't have to

A Market Trader(speaking on behalf of the market) said that things needed to be done now.This includes Council policy of market licensing,drug dealing in the market.That the market need support now.A long term regeneration project would be to late.

The Officer replied that to help the market asset sales would provide the funding.

Provide the funding for what? There's a list of vacant market pitches pinned up on the wall of the toilets in Popes Road. It makes sobering reading. I have no idea how the market could be 'revitalised', but it's hard to see how asset stripping and creating a developers honeypot/giant building site is going to help.


Does anyone know how many jobs will be moved out of Brixton to Vauxhall when the new council block opens. Hundreds I was told, but I'm not sure how accurate that is.

I see a lot of council laminate badges around and about, particularly at lunchtime, spending money keeping the daytime economy above water. Isn't removing a lot of people going to hit the shops and the market hard?

 

[aurora green]

...asset sales would provide the funding...

The holy fecking grail of asset sales.
A solution to each and every problem of Brixton.
Just sell of everything (even considering the Town Hall )

This stinks.

 

[pooka]

There were a few people from Clapham who were very unhappy about the future of Clapham baths.(One of the sites up for "maximising".)

An older Lady got up and said she rather die than see the Brixton Rec and its pool be demolished.

I'm not sure the issue was the baths in Clapham, rather Mary Seacole house. The impassioned plea from the lady who would rather die (who's from Coldharbour, I think) illicited a new bit of jargon "the issue of continuous-swim". That was just before the Strategic Stakeholder Manager got to his feet............

 

[charcol]

Does anyone know how many jobs will be moved out of Brixton to Vauxhall when the new council block opens. Hundreds I was told, but I'm not sure how accurate that is.

The majority of jobs will be moving to Vauxhall from Mary Seacole House rather than any Brixton offices, although there will be some that move from Brixton to Vauxhall and Clapham to Brixton to match up different departments.

 

[Popsicle]

Ooh, reading all this makes me really annoyed.

I've only been in Brixton for a little over a year, but one of the reasons I like it so much is the sense of community here.

I really like the pool in Brixton. Ok, so it's not as posh as your average Holmes Place, but it does the job, and the pool is sensibley designed to enable swimmers to swim, and splashing children/teenagers to splash - hurrah.

 

[newbie]

No. It's a nice pool and I like it, with its very special view of the commuters on the platforms and all. But sensible design it ain't. Next time you're there try to calculate the volume of water involved, then how much that might weigh, and then wonder what sort of lunacy puts that lot up in the air!


cheers charcol. I'm relieved by that.

ps welcome popsicle

 

[Bob]

No. It's a nice pool and I like it, with its very special view of the commuters on the platforms and all. But sensible design it ain't. Next time you're there try to calculate the volume of water involved, then how much that might weigh, and then wonder what sort of lunacy puts that lot up in the air!

ps welcome popsicle

Didn't somebody work this out on a previous thread? I seem to remember it being something like over a million tonnes!

 

[lang rabbie]

Didn't somebody work this out on a previous thread? I seem to remember it being something like over a million tonnes!

Bloody innumerates

At 4?C (32oF) pure water has a density (weight or mass) of about 1 g/cm3, 1 g/ml, 1 kg/litre, 1000 kg/cubic metre, 1 tonne/cubic metre, 62.4 lb/ft3 or 8.34 lb/gallon.

So, if the main pool is 25 metres long x 12(?) metres wide x average 2 metres deep = 600 cubic metres of water = 600 tonnes

Say another 200 tonnes at max for the kids pool = 800 tonnes total

Still out by a factor of 1,250!

 

[Popsicle]

No. It's a nice pool and I like it, with its very special view of the commuters on the platforms and all. But sensible design it ain't. Next time you're there try to calculate the volume of water involved, then how much that might weigh, and then wonder what sort of lunacy puts that lot up in the air!


cheers charcol. I'm relieved by that.

ps welcome popsicle

Thank you

Yeah, I did think that one time when I was there...

But, you know, ignoring the scariness of the construction engineering involved, at least you can swim a full length without being interrupted by irritating 12 year olds, and worrying about bumping into someone's small child

 

[newbie]

Aye, I've served my time with babies in the little pool at the back, and all sorts of littles in the shallow end, then been humilated as they sleekly glide from end to end while I flounder and puff and people point and laugh. At least in the Lido it's possible to pretend the reason for the erratic progress is that someone got in the way!

 

[Pie 1]

Is it just me who thinks that Brixton Rec is actually ok?

No. I think it's more than ok. I swim there 4 - 5 mornings a week and the pool is, AFAIC, well run. They could go a little easier on the chlorine levels, but that aside it's a bloody good pool with plenty of space to accomadate both school leasons and private swimmers. The changing rooms could do with some TLC, esspecially in the locker department & It's also freindly & sociable.

It would be insane to tear it down and start again, it really would. If only for the shame of loosing that fantastic late 70's interior ( well I like it! ).
It's a well built, solid building - not some tin shed with some glass slapped up on the side.
Plus the evening sun hitting that expanse of red brick wall, bounces back the most lovely light into our flat!

PS: on the weight of water thing, as Lang R said, it's not that much. 800 tonnes spead over an area that size is nothing really. It's also not held up by those columns at the front as some people think. They start further over than the pool area.

 

[aurora green]

I agree. I love the views and the way the light pours in when your having a leisurely uninterupted swim. I never get into the fast lanes, but think its brilliant that they exist.
Also having three kids, the teaching pool has been and is, a real boon, great for real beginners and non-swimmers alike.
As a regular user of the pool, I'd be really upset to see it go, and feel so sure that whatever replaced it, most particularly if not actually in Brixton, would be a bad deal for us.

 

[Bob]

Bloody innumerates



So, if the main pool is 25 metres long x 12(?) metres wide x average 2 metres deep = 600 cubic metres of water = 600 tonnes

Say another 200 tonnes at max for the kids pool = 800 tonnes total

Still out by a factor of 1,250!

Can I plead my training as an economist in mitigation?

 

[newbie]

yeah don't misunderstand me. Ever since I worked out what they were up to behind the everlasting hoardings I've been deeply suspicious of walking past the place, just in case someone pulls the plug out, but deep down I agree completely with Pie & aurora, closure shouldn't be on anyone's agenda. Especially closure to release value for development of retail opportunities and similar investment opportunities. The rec is a genuine asset and doesn't need stripping.

 

[lang rabbie]

No. I think it's more than ok. I swim there 4 - 5 mornings a week and the pool is, AFAIC, well run. They could go a little easier on the chlorine levels, but that aside it's a bloody good pool with plenty of space to accomadate both school leasons and private swimmers. The changing rooms could do with some TLC, esspecially in the locker department & It's also freindly & sociable.

It would be insane to tear it down and start again, it really would. If only for the shame of loosing that fantastic late 70's interior ( well I like it! ).
It's a well built, solid building - not some tin shed with some glass slapped up on the side.

Interestingly enough, in the recent London Pools Campaign "Golden Goggles Award" nominations, Brixton Rec was (probably erroneously) classed as a "heritage" pool - "many with uncertain futures, all in need of investment".

[Don't tell English Heritage or they'll list it and International House ]

General comments

A red brick building with little natural light except for pool hall. Slightly claustrophobic feel. May close and be replaced by a more 'modern' facility.

Best things about this pool

Convenient opening hours. Relaxed atmosphere, friendly. / The wooden ceiling and skylights above pool water that let in lots of sunlight. The fixed opening hours. The dedicated lanes for distance swimmers. The community noticeboard and leaflets. The atmosphere - welcoming, inclusive of a wide range of people in terms of ages, ethnicity, gender.

Worst things about this pool

Pool temperature frequently too high (29 degree +); chlorine levels high; changing area cold and in need of renovation. Showers can be cool, changing rooms dirty.

 

[IntoStella]

The holy fecking grail of asset sales.
A solution to each and every problem of Brixton.
Just sell of everything (even considering the Town Hall )

This stinks.

Well said. In fact why not sell off the town hall and leave the rec alone?