frogwoman
Let them eat newts
hello mate, long time no see
Could the time be coming?
- Thread starter Corax
- Start date
hello mate, long time no see
frogwoman
Let them eat newts
They might be a sign of resistance to what's happening, but they in no way represent even a hint of an alternative to the current system.
Even if the people who produce these tracts were able to reach the majority, they contain nothing to convince anybody that a workable alternative exists.
Oh, fuck it then, I'm joining the tory party.
Think about it. Things like factory occupations might get people thinking about wider issues, but even the strikers themselves don't usually think they're challenging the system in its entirety, and least of all do they imagine that a alternative to it might come out of such occupations, even if they spread rapidly. Such events might push some participants towards looking at alternatives, but then they're left with the usual bill of fare that convinces nobody.
Garcia Lorca
Anger can be power
agreed. along with occupations of schools by parents in glasgow i believe that more people are starting to feel let down and bemused by whats going on. it also opens their eyes and they start to look deeper into it, anger at pension losses etc.
I dont believe that slogans that are used in some demos do them any favours in attracting the range of people that are currently getting pissed off. Theres a feeling of discontent, as the clash sang "anger can be power". Its just how we try and use it to unite to make an effective challenge for change.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Yes, i really should have included the schools occupations in there as well to show that it's commuinty based rather than just workplace based.
Garcia Lorca
Anger can be power
Theres a number of community actions that are taking place that remain out of the media but are involving large numbers of people... Housing issues, over crowding, poor conditions (Govanhill as an example) and failure of local councils to meet reasonable standards of work and action to address the issues.
Theres potential to try and unite many groups together and gives us the opportunity for much more for discussion on implementing change with many more people.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Yes, 100% - and you can bet every city and town has its own struggles going on. About time we put our collective energies together to circulate these struggles.
It isn't only reactionaries who don't believe that a viable alternative exists, though, but pretty much everybody.
Power shifts may not be 'the result of carefully worked out plans,' but 'material developments and cultural shifts,' but you at least need a coherent idea of where you are going. The left (in its broadest sense and not just the organised left) is too depleted and fragmented now to make any lasting impact, even when momentous events like those of the past few months are going on. That's why radical left ideas have been completely absent from the picture. The notion that the working class will start to take matters in their own hands is, meanwhile, pie-in-the-sky. In order to organise people have to take their ideas from somewhere, and it's a crisis of left ideas as well as organisation.
The problem of finite resources also doesn't offer comfort. Sure enough, the capitalist system will at some point exhaust itself, and opposition movements have to bear the resources issue in mind, but little in the history of the radical left and working class resistance has ever had to wrestle with this problem. In fact, the opposite is the case-they were predicated on the idea of extending the material benefits of capitalism to everybody. There is no evidence that radical Left ideas can survive the winding down of the capitalist-industrial system. Some Greens and environmentalists might consider themselves to be communists or anarchists, but environmentalism and socialism are not historically compatible.
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
Well those supporting the Visteon occupations are also circulating info regarding the school occupations in Maryhill. Ironically the Maryhill postcode is G20.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Not in Kendal apparantly
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
There's a mass strop on outside the town hall i think.
I think many would beg to differ.....
http://www.ecosocialistnetwork.org/index.htm
http://gptu.net/gleft/greenleft.shtml
http://www.greensocialist.org.uk/ags/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eco-socialist
Contemporary 'green socialist' groups and the like may well beg to differ, but it does nothing to alter the fact that socialism has historically had little concern for the environment in practice, mainly for the reasons touched on above. In fact, in the only places societies which have tried to operate without market economies have an environmental record considerably worse than market capitalism.
It's unavoidable that left thinking now takes environmental issues into account, but there is little to go on from past experience that raises confidence that it will be genuinely able to address the environmental crisis as it deepens. Socialism, in all its forms, has always been about boosting living standards (whatever the mixed results in practice)-offering people more in material terms. There is little evidence that some form of socialism (or whatever people want to call it) can survive by offering them less. Not that anybody else can. The most likely outcome is that 'less' will be imposed.
That's as maybe, I'm just pointing out that your statement was innacurate or at least made on the basis of insufficient knowledge.
As it happens, I do think more needs to be done to look at how a socialist society would be structured, what it would look like and how it would operate on a day to day basis, and it needs to be done in a way that is clear, convincing and understandable. I just have no time for your shouty, self-righteous, self-appointed spokesperson of the people bullshit.
I'm simply giving an opinion on a messageboard set up to encourage the expression of opinions, dear boy. I don't recall claiming any 'spokesperson' role for myself, and I haven't shouted once.
So piss off.
So if you're not a spokesperson, what makes you think you've any right (or sufficient knowledge) to speak on behalf of "the vast majority"?
xes
F.O.A.D
Whilst i think the time is here/has come for a general "uprising". i also think that we'll be playing into the hands of TBTB. Civil dissorder will bring about a hard line police state. Even military action, country wide curfews and stuff like that. But i also think that it has to happen, and I think that it's going to happen. And once it's here, then everyone will stand up and fight. (I hope) Bringing "them" crashing to their knees. (or I could be a bit of a romantacist)
We live in interesting times, to say the least.
We live in interesting times, to say the least.
You should be able to get a fair idea of the reaction of the general public to the various radical agendas on offer without too much effort as well as I or anybody else. You're a big boy now.
xes
F.O.A.D
Garcia Lorca
Anger can be power
I was up talking to the parents at the school on friday and have had regular text message contact. The support the parents have from around Glasgow (and the world! through texts, over 300 from numerous countries), has made them see that there are network of supports and people who do care about poverty and deprivation all be it on a larger level. Its also made members of the community and around who were maybe not "political activists" but have now been effected directly, start to question and think more about what are the influencing factors and have some belief that we do have the power to change that.
Maybe, just maybe this government and the capatilist system has shat on people once to often and there is a rising feeling of discontent that through proper dialogue and discussion theres foundations to be built on.
Ive been thinking a lot about politics recently and how firstly we can reduce the widening gap between rich and poor. I would like to get people thinking more, through engagement with different groups Start a communication at community level.
I was confused after the G8 protests in scotland, I had to reflect for a while on what it actually achieved, how it was percieved, the different actions by different groups, the media and my own involvement. what did it actually do? not the thread for it here tho
I dont have the answers, I dont think anyone does. But through communication with local groups on a wide range of issues, perhaps a more tactful approach of putting your message across rather than "SMASH the system", "MELTDOWN" "HANG" even "Anti capatilist"... just avoiding the blip media hyped words that unfortunately have been drummed into people to stereotype a protester.
Im not against anyone using these words, its all about freedom of expression. Im just starting to think theres possibilities there of making people question the system we live in more. A Lot of people are pissed off, im just trying to think of positives ways we can influence the future.
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
I was up talking to the parents at the school on friday and have had regular text message contact. The support the parents have from around Glasgow (and the world! through texts, over 300 from numerous countries), has made them see that there are network of supports and people who do care about poverty and deprivation all be it on a larger level. Its also made members of the community and around who were maybe not "political activists" but have now been effected directly, start to question and think more about what are the influencing factors and have some belief that we do have the power to change that.
Maybe, just maybe this government and the capatilist system has shat on people once to often and there is a rising feeling of discontent that through proper dialogue and discussion theres foundations to be built on.
Ive been thinking a lot about politics recently and how firstly we can reduce the widening gap between rich and poor. I would like to get people thinking more, through engagement with different groups Start a communication at community level.
I was confused after the G8 protests in scotland, I had to reflect for a while on what it actually achieved, how it was percieved, the different actions by different groups, the media and my own involvement. what did it actually do? not the thread for it here tho
I dont have the answers, I dont think anyone does. But through communication with local groups on a wide range of issues, perhaps a more tactful approach of putting your message across rather than "SMASH the system", "MELTDOWN" "HANG" even "Anti capatilist"... just avoiding the blip media hyped words that unfortunately have been drummed into people to stereotype a protester.
Im not against anyone using these words, its all about freedom of expression. Im just starting to think theres possibilities there of making people question the system we live in more. A Lot of people are pissed off, im just trying to think of positives ways we can influence the future.
Good stuff.
I spoke to Nicola this morning, she was in very good spirits and was stunned to know that folk from all over britain were sending cash and support. I'm going up tomorrow with a collection from this place and over the road. Not a bad wee sum might I add.
Garcia Lorca
Anger can be power
Excellent stuff, I have spoken to nicola several times on the phone, and met donna on Saturday morning with offers of support to see what they rquired etc and asked them what they wanted as well as had a little input with ideas (not that they need them but its always good to have open communication and debate).
I get the feeling that this wont be the last occupation of a school or nursery either... who knows. theres a feeling in the air around the proposed closures and goes right through the city. This is why one school in maryhill has probably opened other parents eyes to different ways of getting noticed. they have had fantastic coverage in the media, tvnews, bbc radio2, bbc radio6, scottish news etc. Hopefully it will be an inspiration although its yet to see what it achieves. Im realistic, memories of Govanhill Swimming Pool there despite the police and council getting shown exactly what the community thought (with tomatoes and eggs
), they still shut the place down... waiting and watching closely tho and they have all my support! With the amount of things going on at the moment, financial, housing, jobs, policing tactics, freedoms being suppressed, poverty.. the list goes on, people from all different backgrounds are thinking more about the politics that effects them. I guess im just trying to look at the positives and how we can use this time of unrest to try and get people to realise, people can make a difference and its the system thats rotten to the core. whilst the majority of wealth is controlled by a small percentage of people, and debit is accumulating, people losing jobs, schools houses, cuts here and everywere... theres a potential to use the unrest amongst so many different people positively.
Corax
Luke 5:16
I like that post by perry1, very much.
I was thinking in a related vein earlier. The difference between what I think of as the principles behind anarchism, and the general perception of anarchists, is that of polar opposites.
For someone to *believe* in anarchism demands, IMO, a greater faith in humanity and the innate goodness of mankind than any other *ideology*.
Whereas capitalism depends on competition, and thus aggression (hmm... wonder why our society is so violent?), anarchism depends on cooperation without coercion. Pages could (and have, no doubt) been written on it.
Yet anarchists and anarchism are widely perceived to be violent, hate-filled, the antithesis of what I believe to be true.
I honestly think that if 100% of the population were exposed to just a little real anarchist theory, there'd have more people agreeing with it than is needed to win a FPTP election*.
I have no idea how this gulf between perception and reality might be overcome, but I strongly believe that is is vital to any real progress.
*I'm not suggesting that as a tactic though - an illustration only!
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