Could the BNP ever get into government?

[Maj0r Tom]

Actually, Rod sleeves has more or less said it. I'm concerned that Labour has moved significantly to the right, and that there is an extreme right wing within the Tories - who are about to come to power. Either Labour or the Tories might end up doing a deal with a right wing party over immigration, for example, in order to stay in power after a hung vote - in the future if the BNP continues to win elections. The BNP's influence and/or opportunity to get into power through the back door does exist - and therefore why I said there's a small chance they'll come to power; small, but it is very real - all they need imo is a few mps in parliament to start exerting a strong influence.

I'm a believer in the precautionary principle over most things - if we take the threat seriously now then maybe if the threat becomes real we'll be in a better position to fight them.

 

[treelover]

Broadly, there are two approaches to ticket checks. First, there is the way that is used in Britain, which is to check often and impose relatively minor penalties. The other approach is used in Brussels, and I would wager a lot of money that it is the same in Kohn: you hardly ever check, but when you do and you catch someone, they are in serious trouble and will end up with a big fine and a criminal record. Both methods will get the majority buying tickets.

I got fined in Naples last month, 37 euros for not stamping my ticket!, they only went for the tourists though, the crazy thing is I leaving the city and didn't need it, just too knackered to get up to stamp it once the crowds had got off the bus...

 

[treelover]

returning to OP, anyone see this ICM poll in the NOTW?

one stand out result; over ONE THIRD of voters believe in a core BNP policy - that British-born people from ethnic minorities should lose all state benefits, including NHS medical treatment, to pay for them to leave the country.

that is pretty incredible

though note it is only a sample of 504 people

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/new...k-wake-up-call-about-immigration-and-BNP.html

 

[treelover]

Either Labour or the Tories might end up doing a deal with a right wing party over immigration,

What sort of deal do you mean?

 

[Maj0r Tom]

What sort of deal do you mean?

There are various ways a small party might help a major gain power or avoid defeat. An agreement to vote together in parliament to form a minority government. The major party might also agree not to field serious candidates or campaign agianst the BNP in their stronghold. Who knows? I'm speculating. All I'm saying really is I don;t think you can rule out the possibility that the BNP might get into government at some point in the future.

 

[kyser_soze]

I got fined in Naples last month, 37 euros for not stamping my ticket!, they only went for the tourists though, the crazy thing is I leaving the city and didn't need it, just too knackered to get up to stamp it once the crowds had got off the bus...

Yeah, that validating ticket bollocks is a killer. TBF tho, buying train tickets in Italy is a killer generally...

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There are various ways a small party might help a major gain power or avoid defeat. An agreement to vote together in parliament to form a minority government. The major party might also agree not to field serious candidates or campaign agianst the BNP in their stronghold. Who knows? I'm speculating. All I'm saying really is I don;t think you can rule out the possibility that the BNP might get into government at some point in the future.

It would never happen. None of the major parties would consider touching the BNP in any circumstances. UKIP, maybe, for the Tories, but never the the BNP.

 

[Maj0r Tom]

It would never happen. None of the major parties would consider touching the BNP in any circumstances. UKIP, maybe, for the Tories, but never the the BNP.

Not now, but how many foresaw the dramatic shift in the labour party before Blair became leader? Who knows where the major parties will be in 10 to 15 years, and how respectable the BNP may have painted itelf in the eyes of the public by then?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Not now, but how many foresaw the dramatic shift in the labour party before Blair became leader?

Some people did. It would take a larger shift than that for, say, the Tories to ally themselves with the BNP. The BNP would have to ditch its racism entirely, which will not happen as racism is the whole point of the BNP.

 

[frogwoman]

It would never happen. None of the major parties would consider touching the BNP in any circumstances. UKIP, maybe, for the Tories, but never the the BNP.

Some of the more right wing tories are just as bad if not worse than the bnp. you're right that the present tory party wouldn't touch them under present cricumstances with a barge pole, but there could easily be a split within the party - and IMO things are gong to get a lot worse in the next few years

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Some of the more right wing tories are just as bad if not worse than the bnp.

But the tory party, which was never a racist party but was once a safe home for racists, has moved very categorically away from its former implicit racism in the last 40 years. That won't change back.

 

[Maj0r Tom]

Some people did. It would take a larger shift than that for, say, the Tories to ally themselves with the BNP. The BNP would have to ditch its racism entirely, which will not happen as racism is the whole point of the BNP.

you could be right - and maybe I'm just worrying too much.

But I'm thinking of a government two or three terms into power, losing popularity, wanting to cling to power, and a small party being offered a share of that power - can you be sure that both parties wouldn't make the required compromises to allow this scenario to happen?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

But I'm thinking of a government two or three terms into power, losing popularity, wanting to cling to power, and a small party being offered a share of that power - can you be sure that neither party would make the required compromises to allow this scenario to happen?

Yes, because the other parties, the media and many within the party would flame them. None of the main parties would ever ally themselves with an openly racist party. It simply would never happen. It would cause riots, for starters, and all governments fear riots.

I'm much less pessimistic than you. Britain is a much less racist country now than it was in, say, the 1970s, and I expect it to be a less racist country in 30 years' time than it is now.

 

[kyser_soze]

You have to separate out situational racism (e.g. concern over loosing ones job being redirected at 'them' when you've never had any inclination toward racism). with ideological racism (for want of a better term) which is a wholly different mentality and is based on ideas like racial suprematism, gene theories about racial limits on intelligence etc.

30 years ago you'd have found far more of the latter than the former; these days my guess would be that the racism is driven by economics more than ideology for many/most.

 

[Maj0r Tom]

Yes, because the other parties, the media and many within the party would flame them. None of the main parties would ever ally themselves with an openly racist party. It simply would never happen. It would cause riots, for starters, and all governments fear riots.

I'm much less pessimistic than you. Britain is a much less racist country now than it was in, say, the 1970s, and I expect it to be a less racist country in 30 years' time than it is now.

Again - I'd like to accept what you're saying but I live in south east London just streets away from where i lived 25 years ago (by odd coincidence) - Woolwich and Plumstead were very racist back then - and I can't say I see much difference now. Same in the west country where I come from originally - still a lot of racism about.

 

[Maj0r Tom]

You have to separate out situational racism (e.g. concern over loosing ones job being redirected at 'them' when you've never had any inclination toward racism). with ideological racism (for want of a better term) which is a wholly different mentality and is based on ideas like racial suprematism, gene theories about racial limits on intelligence etc.

30 years ago you'd have found far more of the latter than the former; these days my guess would be that the racism is driven by economics more than ideology for many/most.

i agree - but those genetic arguments are pretty persistant for something with no scientific foundation whatsoever - and in the age of increasing belief in creationism i can't help but worry.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You have to separate out situational racism (e.g. concern over loosing ones job being redirected at 'them' when you've never had any inclination toward racism). with ideological racism (for want of a better term) which is a wholly different mentality and is based on ideas like racial suprematism, gene theories about racial limits on intelligence etc.

30 years ago you'd have found far more of the latter than the former; these days my guess would be that the racism is driven by economics more than ideology for many/most.

Immigrants are an easy scapegoat in times of economic crisis. One of two things will happen to neutralise the BNP, and I don't doubt that they will be neutralised: either the real causes of the marginalisation of certain sectors of society will be addressed (by embarking on social housing programmes, for instance); or an incoming government will, Thatcher-style, adopt some of the language of the BNP regarding immigration (while most probably not doing too much about it bar the odd symbolic gesture). I doubt it will be the former, unfortunately. In fact, I'd be amazed if it were.

Ironically, given that the BNP needs economic woe to spread its word, one of the effects of the recession is the mass exflux of Eastern Europeans back home as the jobs disappear.

 

[frogwoman]

Won't stop the tabloid press peddalling their racist bullshit message about immigrants taking our jobs and crosses not allowed at schools any more, at the same time they castigate the BNP for being racist!

 

[kyser_soze]

i agree - but those genetic arguments are pretty persistant for something with no scientific foundation whatsoever - and in the age of increasing belief in creationism i can't help but worry.

Flat Earthers still exist; people in the C20th who think the planet is flat, despite evidence as clear as the curvature of the earth! You also need to draw a line between the US and UK when it comes to creationism - there's currently an upsurge of support for it in the UK, but mainly from relatively small and concentrated groups in society. Give it a generation or so and that genie will be back in it's bottle.

I'm with LBJ - while there are racist tories, they know that they're better served by shutting up and restricting their racism to the pub.

It would be interesting to see an ethinicity make up of the Tory party, split by region.

 

[JimPage]

Not unless
1. there was a breakdown of civil order an a depression of a very deep level
2. they elect a leader free of Griffins baggage
3. they find a narrative acceptable to the middle classes

 

[durruti02]

Modernise the state, complete national integration, establish a new foreign policy, complete the national market, direct internal development etc Reducing it to having a sole function is just a political way of saying that fassism is anything nasty. Sure that's one function, but if you're going to look at how fascism functioned for capital then you have to look a bit further.

none of the above are unique to fascism at all .. national governments, neo liberalism etc have done the above .. the one thing that is unique to fascism is how it is specifically used to divide the w/c .. and that is a mile away from 'reducing it to anything nasty' .. dividing the w/c is a particular specific thing .. nothing else can do it in the same way

 

[butchersapron]

I didn't say they were unique to fascism, i said they were some of the other functions they historically carried out. And as i said above, your sole function of fascism (to divide the working class) has been carried out by many different ideologies and institutions - and on top of that, it seems to assume there's some sort of natural homegenity within the w/c (which i know that you don't really believe). There's more content to fascism than that sole function you ascribe to it - otherwise it's just anything bad, and that means it could take on hundreds of different forms - toryism, social-democracy, exclusive civv nationalism, theocracy...

 

[durruti02]

nope i still have not seen you put up another political movement whose sole function ( before it gets into power btw .. the other functions you ascribe are only possible once IN power) is to divide the w/c so it can not resist capital WHILE AT THE SAME TIME APPEARING RADICAL .. capital uses all other political parties and movements in much differrent ways

and so no it is nOT just 'anything bad' .. it is a specific movement that grows particularly in the lower m/c and lower w/c and by it's presence fucks up any chance of dealing with capital .. honestly maybe i'm being daft but what else can you see that capital uses to do this in crisis??

actually there is one problem with my analogy .. falangism had little or no radical content afaik

 

[behemoth]

Couldn't happen here with the present voting system and deeply entrenched voting population. There's too many people that will vote for the party that they always have voted for. There's simply too much voter apathy, people aren't wiling to analyse the policies. On top of that, fascist regimes and dictatorships seem to arise where there are populations subject to far higher levels of poverty than that experienced here.

Our voting system means a minority party could win majority power. PR would at least mean they could only ever influence a bigger party in coalition. Not arguing for or against PR, but it is conceivable they could get 20% of the vote and have many more seats. (Bugger, broke my promise not to comment on any of the interminable BNP threads)

 

[Azrael]

[...] a bit like how people say someone who's bald, obese or has ginger hair wouldn't get into power

Redheads in power? Never!

 

[CUMBRIANDRAGON]

If fascism was ever to come to power in this country it would be in the disguise of the main stream. And the first thing they would do is set about establishing a European dictatorship.


Shit its all ready happening.