Could the BNP ever get into government?

[ViolentPanda]

Of course I'm not saying that the Taliban were nasty so they were fascist. This is probably for another thread but weren't the Taliban taken to power by "street soldiers", had a mass base, were authoritarian etc

In what way did they not meet the definition of fascism?

For a start they're not pro-capital or corporatist.

 

[weltweit]

Well the national front in France are quite an influence so it is possible but in the mid term not at all likely.

 

[butchersapron]

The FN have never been in national govt though - at their height they did control a few municipalities in the south-east, but never national govt.

 

[Cheesypoof]

nick griffin is a cunt. He probably loathes the Irish.

we are scum to him, in his mind: 'just like niggers and pakis.'

in nick griffins ideal world, poor people would slave for the rich

and women are minions too i bet

 

[Cheesypoof]

It's not neceassilry poverty, loss of status, los of position, loss of power - these were real driving forces behind the mass membership of the nazi movement. Itlay was just a naked class war sparked off by a violent w/c offensive - in Germnay that same offensive had been definitively defeated 10 years previous, which is why i'm not so sure it's helpful for people to just assume the experiences are one and the same.

Britain isnt hungry enough for the kind of change that the BNP offers

 

[ViolentPanda]

nick griffin is a cunt. He probably loathes the Irish.

So you keep saying, although you'd be hard-pushed to find anything he's said or done in the last 15 years to support your contention.

we are scum to him, in his mind: 'just like niggers and pakis.'

The phrase beloved of the NF was "green wogs".

in nick griffins ideal world, poor people would slave for the rich

and women are minions too i bet

Such incisive analysis. Shame it's got little to do with reality.

 

[Cheesypoof]

So you keep saying, although you'd be hard-pushed to find anything he's said or done in the last 15 years to support your contention.

yep its just a hunch. we know he would loathe irish peeps. I will find the mother fucker and prove it to you, hows that?

Such incisive analysis. Shame it's got little to do with reality.

how do you know?

 

[Stoat Boy]

From hearing the amount of locals bleating on about the foreigners stealing their jobs and so on during my last visit to the South of Ireland I would think that Mr Griffins views might get a warm welcome from many Irish people.

 

[Idris2002]

From hearing the amount of locals bleating on about the foreigners stealing their jobs and so on during my last visit to the South of Ireland I would think that Mr Griffins views might get a warm welcome from many Irish people.

Except that the demographic who give their protest vote to the BNP in UK usually vote for the Shinners in Ireland - and SF can't really turn around and reinvent themselves as a white chauvinist party after years of putting up murals solidarising with 3rd World liberation fronts.

I think there may well be a right-populist family values protest party emerging in the 26 counties sooner or later - but it's more likely to take the Berlusconi route. Maybe it'll be led by my cousin's pal, Mr. Ganley.

 

[goldenecitrone]

Nick Griffin said today he was the victim of a "lynch mob" audience drawn from a city that had been "ethnically cleansed" and was "no longer British".

When a man is tired of London, he is tired of life. Someone do Nick a favour and put a bullet through his nasty face.

 

[skevin]

I'm going to make a suggestion that i know many here will flame me for but i think it needs to be said.

Most 'white Brits' are opposed to immigration. I think we all know many people who 'don't like the way the country is going'. Looking at the demographics i think we have to accept that the non-white population is going to continue grow for the forseeable future and the white population will decrease. I just think a lot of racist whites are going to resent this because they believe that 'it's their country' and i can honestly see the BNP vote rocketing as this transformation becomes more obvious. Some people will simply feel they have no choice but to vote BNP.

So how do we go about preventing this seemingly inevitable scenario?

That for me is the biggest question progressives and anti-fascists must ask themselves.

Please don't flame me - i'm just saying what i see.

 

[ViolentPanda]

yep its just a hunch. we know he would loathe irish peeps.

No, we don't, and his actions and words don't suggest that he would, either.

I will find the mother fucker and prove it to you, hows that?

That'd merely prove that he disliked you.

how do you know?

Because I know a little bit about the BNP and about the British far-right.

 

[goldenecitrone]

Most 'white Brits' are opposed to immigration.

Are they? All immigration? Well that certainly will cause some difficulties.

 

[laptop]

They didn't come into power - they were given it. And without a mass base it's simply not a fascist regime it's an authoritarian or military dictatorship for example.

So you're excluding Franco and Salazar, both in ideology more Fascist than the Nazis?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'm going to make a suggestion that i know many here will flame me for but i think it needs to be said.

Most 'white Brits' are opposed to immigration.

Do you mean "most white British people" or are you extrapolating a group of people you know to some kind of national scale?

I think we all know many people who 'don't like the way the country is going'.

True, but that doesn't mean that "discontent = a vote for the BNP", and "the way the country is going" isn't as wrapped up in immigration as the media would wish us to believe.

Looking at the demographics i think we have to accept that the non-white population is going to continue grow for the forseeable future and the white population will decrease.

Except that, of course, you can project no such thing.
Take a look at demographic forecasts from 10. 15 and 20 years ago of the present. The similarity they share is an over-estimation of "non-white" ethnic minority population growth. This is partly because they didn't factor in intra-EU relocation, and partly because they didn't predict a slow upswing in "native" birthrate alongside a decline in the family size of 2nd and 3rd generation British from ethnic minority backgrounds.
Demographics are blunt tools. Like polls, the same information can be represented to say many different things.

I just think a lot of racist whites are going to resent this because they believe that 'it's their country' and i can honestly see the BNP vote rocketing as this transformation becomes more obvious. Some people will simply feel they have no choice but to vote BNP.

I can see the BNP picking up votes, but "rocketing" is hardly the word I'd use, and they themselves will be content with a slow, uncontroversial building of membership, which will allow them to further represent themselves as a legitimate "protest vote"

So how do we go about preventing this seemingly inevitable scenario?

We watch, we wait, and we make sure that the truth is never submerged by the fiction.

 

[skevin]

Are they? All immigration? Well that certainly will cause some difficulties.

I think so yes. A few years ago the consensus amongst the WWC seemed to be 'as long as they come here and work hard, abide laws blah blah' but now all i hear in pubs is 'there's no jobs for them anyway we need to shut the door'.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Are they? All immigration? Well that certainly will cause some difficulties.

Especially to all those Essex builders who make money off the back of eastern European construction workers.

 

[Idris2002]

So you're excluding Franco and Salazar, both in ideology more Fascist than the Nazis?

Well, after 1945, Franco definitely moved away from reliance on the old school Falangists - that's how Opus Dei came to be set up. But butchers will know more about this than me.

 

[butchersapron]

Yep i'm excluding them both. Both were traditional catholic conservative authoritarian dictatorships with very little in common with Fascism - both in fact rejected fascism as being exemplars of modernist paganism. I really cannot see anything to support your claim they were both more fascist than the nazis. In Spain the real fascists, the Falange were a tiny group used and then utterly sidelined by Franco. Much the same happened in Portugal. Fascism played no real role in either regime - either practically or in terms of ideology.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Hard to argue that Franco's concept of 'vertical interests' wasn't Fascist, I'd have thought. The idea that society is grouped not along class lines, but along occupation lines is inherently Fascist – your common cause is with your boss, not other workers down the road, and those at the top of such vertical lines are there because they deserve to be there.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Nick Griffin said today he was the victim of a "lynch mob"

Would that be your standard old fashioned lynch mob, or "almost entirely non-violent" one like the new fangled KKK?

Speaking of which, the Grand Wizard seems to be a little irked by Griffin's side swipe at him, but wants to make it clear that this lovers tiff between two aryan brothers won't stand in the way of what could possibly be a long and meaningful relationship:

http: //www.davidduke.com/general/david-duke-on-nick-griffin-more-comments_13130.html

Bless.

 

[butchersapron]

Hard to argue that Franco's concept of 'vertical interests' wasn't Fascist, I'd have thought. The idea that society is grouped not along class lines, but along occupation lines is inherently Fascist – your common cause is with your boss, not other workers down the road, and those at the top of such vertical lines are there because they deserve to be there.

I've never heard of that typical corporatist concept being connected with Franco. With the Falange and their form of national-syndicalism yes, but not with Franco, and certainly not in reality in the state post-civil war. In fact, Franco secured his regime by facing down these groups. Franco was pretty much non-ideological.

 

[Idris2002]

Yep i'm excluding them both. Both were traditional catholic conservative authoritarian dictatorships with very little in common with Fascism - both in fact rejected fascism as being exemplars of modernist paganism. I really cannot see anything to support your claim they were both more fascist than the nazis. In Spain the real fascists, the Falange were a tiny group used and then utterly sidelined by Franco. Much the same happened in Portugal. Fascism played no real role in either regime - either practically or in terms of ideology.

Just had a look at Salazar's wiki page. Looks like (and I ban my students from citing wikipaedia, though when I do it, it's fine, of course) Salazar repressed Portugal's National Syndicalists, who opposed him from the right but were not themselves authentic fascists, but did adopt some of the trappings of fascism, like a youth movement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/António_de_Oliveira_Salazar

The youth movement was called 'Mocidade Portugese',

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/António_de_Oliveira_Salazar

 

[butchersapron]

Would that be your standard old fashioned lynch mob, or "almost entirely non-violent" one like the new fangled KKK?

Speaking of which, the Grand Wizard seems to be a little irked by Griffin's side swipe at him, but wants to make it clear that this lovers tiff between two aryan brothers won't stand in the way of what could possibly be a long and meaningful relationship:

http: //www.davidduke.com/general/david-duke-on-nick-griffin-more-comments_13130.html

Bless.

On the Duke question i don't know why griffin didn't point out that he'd left the KKK 20 years earlier.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I've never heard of that typical corporatist concept being connected with Franco. With the Falange and their form of national-syndicalism yes, but not with Franco, and certainly not in reality in the state post-civil war. In fact, Franco secured his regime by facing down these groups. Franco was pretty much non-ideological.

Paul Preston talks about it. Franco used the analogy of the family. I'll try to dig it out if I can find the book.

 

[butchersapron]

Paul Preston talks about it. Franco used the analogy of the family. I'll try to dig it out if I can find the book.

I suspect then that it was during the war or the immediate years after when he used Falange rhetoric whilst sidelining them. Of course, every mainstream party argues the same thing in different words today, and that form of corporatism only ever really existed (however mangled) in post-war democratic europe.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I suspect then that it was during the war or the immediate years after when he used Falange rhetoric whilst sidelining them. Of course, every mainstream party argues the same thing in different words today, and that form of corporatism only ever really existed (however mangled) in post-war democratic europe.

You could be right. Can't find the Preston book, annoyingly.

 

[audiotech]

From conversativehome.

From a YouGov poll in The Telegraph mentioned in another thread. This with more details.

Tories 13 percent ahead.

In terms of the BNP...

The poll found the BNP on just 3% (compared to 2% last month);
71% said they viewed the BNP negatively and 9% positively;
22% said they would consider voting BNP and 66% say they would not do so under any circumstances;
55% say the BNP has a point in saying "it wishes to speak up for the interests of the indigenous, white British people";
46% agree that "'Nick Griffin, the BNP leader, is not a genuine democrat: he would like to run Britain as a dictatorship if he got the chance'".

 

[littlebabyjesus]

55% say the BNP has a point in saying "it wishes to speak up for the interests of the indigenous, white British people";

That's depressingly high.

 

[likesfish]

more likely than the swp gaining power but only just