Could someone tell what the SWP are about?
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Pickman's model said:
I think my original post said "some anarchists" - Rebel tried to turn it round to say that my own arguements boiled down to that. If there's going to be a meaningful discussion about why the level of internal education in the SWP is so piss poor, and why so much bollocks is spoken, I think it helps to acknowledge that not every single anarchist in the world is incapable of speaking out of their arse as well. Like I said I think a much more useful discussion can be had about the implications of this for how the SWP (and other sects) functions internally. The reason why they talk shit, not the reasons why what they talk is[/] shit. There's plenty of threads where the second question has been done to death (although I'll engage with the Donna Ferentes/Squatticus Bolshevism argument as well anyway).
Well, you cannot pick one meeting and imply that Marxism in its entirety is not educational. I have learnt a lot from Marxism events.
I don't understand that, sorry.
Haven't we had this debate in another forum? Vesenka was a reaction to the (dire) economic situation in Russia, which wasn't helped by internal pressures (from Railwaymen's Union, sabotage etc). How is this implicit in the theory of Bolshevism?
I was specifically talking about how the SWP educates members about alternative/opposing ideologies. I really shouldn't comment on Marxism though 'cos I've never been.mattkidd12 said:
I meant the branches with healthy discussions vs. the ones doing only paper sales - I'd imagine the CC encourages paper sales above everything else, so to hold extended debates etc. probably means operating outside the normal role/requirements of a local group - in other words in spite of the organisation rather than because of it.
We have, but Donna and Squatticus haven't, and it was directed at them not you
. Squatticus asked for examples of the Bolsheviks suppressing the revolution before 1921, I gave one example - suppressing the power of the genuine forms of workers' control within two months of October. It may not be the best example (the Red Army being sent to crush the Makhnovschina's a better example, along with Lenin calling for the Taylor system, and etc.), but it's the earliest one.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
The British SWP does actually write about other groups on the left from time to time. I wouldn't particularly criticise them about the frequency of such incidents, the problem lies more with the shallow or downright misleading nature of their commentary. The Irish SWP, by the way, writes about other left groups much more regularly. Recently that mostly means open or semi-coded appeals to the Socialist Party for an alliance of some kind but it has also memorably involved a blistering attack on entirely fictional autonomists carring out fictional anti-trade union activities.
The paper sales thing partially reflects your anarchist prejudices, I think, but the wider point is interesting. One thing that seems clear is that regular in depth political discussion at SWP meetings has declined drastically over recent years. To say that doesn't necessarily imply plotting by the evil CC. It can be explained due to a combination of a few things including:
(a) shrinking branch sizes, both as a consequence of membership decline and as a deliberate policy of breaking larger units into smaller ones.
(b) pressure of work and shifting priorities. The SWP are very obviously concentrating their efforts on their mass work (or less charitably their fronts) and downgrading the amount of resources (ie members time and energy) going into party building. Of course the first thing to go isn't the organisational stuff, whether its organising paper or more importantly coordinating work in campaigns, but the political stuff. Party Notes tends to strongly corroborate this point. Of course the absence of the political element gradually has serious knock on effects on organisational coherence.
Much of this is visible in Ireland too, although perhaps to a slightly lesser degree. When I joined the Irish Socialist Party it was noticeable that the Irish SWP were better drilled on basic organisational/party building tasks than we were. Their "average member" also seemed to me to be a bit more confident about their politics, perhaps in part because of the sheer number of students and recent ex-students they then had involved. None of that is true now, and much as I'd like to put all of the change down to us getting everything right that just wouldn't be accurate. We have over a few years been working to correct what we saw as a gradual de-politicisation of our own organisation and we have had success in that but the SWP has also shifted in a quite different direction.
catch said:
The paper sales thing partially reflects your anarchist prejudices, I think, but the wider point is interesting. One thing that seems clear is that regular in depth political discussion at SWP meetings has declined drastically over recent years. To say that doesn't necessarily imply plotting by the evil CC. It can be explained due to a combination of a few things including:
(a) shrinking branch sizes, both as a consequence of membership decline and as a deliberate policy of breaking larger units into smaller ones.
(b) pressure of work and shifting priorities. The SWP are very obviously concentrating their efforts on their mass work (or less charitably their fronts) and downgrading the amount of resources (ie members time and energy) going into party building. Of course the first thing to go isn't the organisational stuff, whether its organising paper or more importantly coordinating work in campaigns, but the political stuff. Party Notes tends to strongly corroborate this point. Of course the absence of the political element gradually has serious knock on effects on organisational coherence.
Much of this is visible in Ireland too, although perhaps to a slightly lesser degree. When I joined the Irish Socialist Party it was noticeable that the Irish SWP were better drilled on basic organisational/party building tasks than we were. Their "average member" also seemed to me to be a bit more confident about their politics, perhaps in part because of the sheer number of students and recent ex-students they then had involved. None of that is true now, and much as I'd like to put all of the change down to us getting everything right that just wouldn't be accurate. We have over a few years been working to correct what we saw as a gradual de-politicisation of our own organisation and we have had success in that but the SWP has also shifted in a quite different direction.
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
catch said:
On the first point, this isn't my personal experience, generally I find these forums most interesting when people disagree with the speaker and when I've chaired meetings I've actively encouraged people to feel free to criticise the speaker and disagree.
On the second point - what are 3 of Marx's most important works??
And as the complete works of Marx is available there - surely this includes these works
Squatticus
for an armed populace
catch said:We have, but Donna and Squatticus haven't, and it was directed at them not you
I'll look into those, ta. I do tend to subscribe to the "no playing footy in the lifeboat" rule, though.
Udo Erasmus said:
They were Capital 2, 3 and Theories of Surplus Value, as you could very easily have found out by reading the thread.
Is the "complete works" a set that must be bought in full? 'cos they certainly weren't stocking everything he wrote in separate volumes.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
As for Groucho's earlier post - well, " the last scintilla of doubt just rode
out of town" on you comrade. Undoubtdtly these anarchist were of the same order as the trotskist-fascists who conspired with Franco and the Vatican in the 30s. How easy it is, how easy. You can take the bolshevik out of the party but...
out of town" on you comrade. Undoubtdtly these anarchist were of the same order as the trotskist-fascists who conspired with Franco and the Vatican in the 30s. How easy it is, how easy. You can take the bolshevik out of the party but...
Pickman's model
sunset spires and twilight woods
http://www.l-w-bks.co.uk/books/archive/marx_collected.htmlUdo Erasmus said:
that's the set you want!
catch said:
Bookmarks online:
Collected Works 36: Capital Volume 2
by Marx, K & Engels, F. Published/Distributed by Central.
ISBN No: 0853154570
and
Collected Works 37: Capital Volume 3
by Marx, K & Engels, F. Published/Distributed by Central.
ISBN No: 0853154589
£ 45.00
and
Theories Of Surplus Value
by Marx, Karl. Published/Distributed by Humanity.
ISBN No: 1573927775
£ 61.00
Bookmarks
Pickman's model
sunset spires and twilight woods
there's a copy of vol i of that in bookmongers in brixton for a much lower price.mattkidd12 said:
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
That's all they're selling? Really?
Pickman's model
sunset spires and twilight woods
oh - and as of last saturday there was a copy of the swc book in bookmongers, too - but i didn't check the price.
why buy at bookmarks when you can support a local brixton business?
why buy at bookmarks when you can support a local brixton business?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Ok, i misread, i though that he said that *was* all they sell.mattkidd12 said:
Pickman's model
sunset spires and twilight woods
other secondhand bookshops with a decent secondhand section for these and other socialist books in london include the bookshop in the elephant & castle shopping centre & the one on harmood st in camden. also black gull books by camden lock (nr the celtick jewllery shop, by what was dingwalls).
Pickman's model
sunset spires and twilight woods
large!mattkidd12 said:
i was there recently and i didn't see any volumes of marx'n'engels lying about, otherwise i'd have included it. although i did get a copy of serge's memoirs of a revolutionary from there...
Pickman's model
sunset spires and twilight woods
judd 2.mattkidd12 said:From "Judds"? Oh wow, someone else has actually been there.It is called Judd isn't it?
http://www.londontown.com/LondonInformation/Shopping/Judd_Two_Books/65ca/
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
Surely Porcupine in Kings Cross is where it's at for lefty second hand books in London? Underneath Housmans, which has the largest collection of newly released sectariana around.
Pickman's model
sunset spires and twilight woods
oh - yr thinking of porcupine booksellers, below housman's, 5 caledonian rd, london n.mattkidd12 said:
yeh they're probably the best place for marxy stuff in london, and they've a small @ section - bit pricey, tho.
fuck knows how i forgot them!
Udo Erasmus
Well-Known Member
catch said:
Surely this merits a debate - I'm certainly not sure whether these are Marx's most important works
three of, Not "the three". Haven't read any of them yet. Main reason I noticed is because I popped in when I was in the area, thinking I could probably get Capital Vol. 2 in there. Was my first visit and a disappointing one at that (although I've walked out of Freedom empty handed before as well, and they don't have a decent Marx selection either)
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