Could someone tell what the SWP are about?

[Donna Ferentes]

why would i want to do that?

You might not. However, "one" might.

 

[Pickman's model]

I was talking to Lost Zoot. You pm me about the SWP and Trotsky enough as it is...

i don't recall ever pm'ing you about the swp or trotsky. though i suppose that's quite enough...

 

[Groucho]

This latter is also irritating when one is the leader of a union/Branch delegation to a conference and one of your delegates follows the SWP party line, rather than being mandated by their Branch or union. Secondly,

I know that this has happened in the past but it has been stamped on.

If SWP members have followed the 'SWP line' in spite of a contrary mandate from their union branch then they are not following the SWP line! The line is;
1. You try to win the SWP supported position in your union branch. 2. You follow the democratic mandate as decided by your union branch meeting (whether or not the decision follows the party line). Union democracy is sacrocanct.

 

[Lost Zoot]

Lost Zoot

it's almost certainly too late to send a moderator a private message and get this thread sent to the bin.

Oh, well...I'm sure it'll die down now anyway.
I didn't know what to do,so i skimmed abit.

 

[Groucho]

Not union funds - union expenses to delegates which delegates can spend as they wish. If SWP delegates choose to give some of that to the SWP so the party can have a better intervention at conference and so contribute more of their own personal money to things like transport and food and drink etc, what is the problem?

Union conference expenses used to be more than enough. Branches used to pool delegate fees together to pay for additional observers not funded by the union centrally (where allowed). Moderate/right-wing delegates usually choose to spend their money on decent accommodation. SWP members chose to slum it in cheap accommodation thus sparing some to fund the party intervention. However, some unions these days (and quite rightly) only pay out for expenses incurred with minimal subsistance (food/beer money) so these days funding the party intervention comes out of SWP members pockets. This is on a as much as you can afford basis.

I always find it odd that former SWP members feel they were forced to do this or that whilst members. We are usually busy telling bosses, coppers etc to fuck off...can't these people tell other SWP members to fuck off where appropriate?! I know I do (I usually just say no politely, nothing more is needed except in the case of the occassional over zealous spotty student!)

 

[Pickman's model]

Oh, well...I'm sure it'll die down now anyway.
I didn't know what to do,so i skimmed abit.

there is some purpose served by this thread though - you may have a few candidates for your ignore list... (click on user cp and scroll down).

 

[cockneyrebel]

Also, I know several people who have left SWP over the years and, in just about every case, people have had great difficulty being "allowed" to leave the party. In one case, it amounted virtually to stalking, and was pretty unpleasant.

There is some truth in this. Most people I know who have left the SWP end up being blanked by SWPers who used to be friendly with them (or get open hostility), especially if they join another left group. Always found it a bit cultish. I didn't like many of the SWPers I came across in the organisation so this came as a bit of relief to me (any of the people I thought were alright didn't go along with that crap), but I know some people have found it quite upsetting.

I usually just say no politely, nothing more is needed except in the case of the occassional over zealous spotty student!

Can you not talk about Tom Whitakker (sp?!) like that please.....

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Also, I know several people who have left SWP over the years and, in just about every case, people have had great difficulty being "allowed" to leave the party. In one case, it amounted virtually to stalking, and was pretty unpleasant.

Christ I've had more hassle from ex-girlfriends than I did from the party when I left it!

 

[bolshiebhoy]

There is some truth in this. Most people I know who have left the SWP end up being blanked by SWPers who used to be friendly with them (or get open hostility), especially if they join another left group. Always found it a bit cultish. I didn't like many of the SWPers I came across in the organisation so this came as a bit of relief to me (any of the people I thought were alright didn't go along with that crap), but I know some people have found it quite upsetting.

I think the big difference is where you end up having left the swp. If you end up in one of the sects then the attitude is pretty harsh (and rightly so in my opinion) whereas if you just drift around or move rightwards (within limits!) the vibes are a lot friendlier. That may be unfair on a personal level but it has a certain political logic. Personally the worst I've had is getting blanked but that's by very few people and the ones who know me best just call me a sell-out then ask me to make a donation

 

[cockneyrebel]

Christ I've had more hassle from ex-girlfriends than I did from the party when I left it!

My experience isn't people getting hassled, it's people getting blanked and hostility - anything from low level verbal, to people squaring up to people.....all a bit pathetic and cultish.....

And what is the "political logic", that you can intimidate and bully someone out of politics if they join another group on the left. Sounds like the Sparts (which I sometimes find SWP organisers to be watered down versions of).

The hassling stuff happens far more when the SWP have first come across people. I know lots of people who freaked out when someone turned up with a stack of papers at the their door, especially when the SWP had no appreciation that people's family might not look to kindly on lefty organisations and they might get that person into grief. Especially the middle class screechy members, who had no clue whatsoever.

 

[Lost Zoot]

there is some purpose served by this thread though - you may have a few candidates for your ignore list... (click on user cp and scroll down).

lol
well thanks Guineveretoo and Random and others, now i know he wasn’t just lenin's bearded friend, and that the SWP are just as weird as i suspected. I had heard "snippests" before about them hijacking demos and i've heard tales of them hounding people about membership, i do agree with some stuff but as a organisation they kinda seem to suck.
hmm, rebel warrior maybe i should go to a meeting or somehting to find out "First hand", but i'm not sure that i really want to...

 

[Pickman's model]

lol
maybe i should go to a meeting or somehting to find out "First hand", but i'm not sure that i really want to...

no! NO! NO!

yr curiousity will get you into extreme boredom.

 

[cockneyrebel]

I know it's been said a couple of times on here before, but I thought one of the best SWP stories (in terms of their attitude towards the rest of the left) was when they banned members of other left groups attending their forum titled:

"How can the left unite".....

You couldn't make it up......

 

[parallelepipete]

Hi Zoot,

Since you mentioned SWP and Trotsky - I made the mistake of asking what a Trot is a while ago - not sure I'm any clearer but thought you might want a read of the replies...

 

[bolshiebhoy]

And what is the "political logic", that you can intimidate and bully someone out of politics if they join another group on the left. Sounds like the Sparts (which I sometimes find SWP organisers to be watered down versions of).

I'm sure there are organisers who would take that as a compliment. The crucial difference is the Sparts treated everybody like that, while swp 'hacks' generally reserve that treatment for people from the left ghetto sects, while falling over themselves to be polite towards people from a reformist background. Not a very subtle outloook on life but it does have a logic.

 

[cockneyrebel]

I'm sure there are organisers who would take that as a compliment. The crucial difference is the Sparts treated everybody like that, while swp 'hacks' generally reserve that treatment for people from the left ghetto sects, while falling over themselves to be polite towards people from a reformist background. Not a very subtle outloook on life but it does have a logic.

A fairly sickening logic, and one that I've seen many times before as leading SWP organisers have their tongue shoved up some trade union bureaucrat or right-wing reformist at the ESF, while treating the rest of the left with disdain.

And those very same organisers often treat the SWPs own members like shit as well. As said I can see the logic of what they do, but trying to bully people out of politics because they join another left group doesn't seem like a great way to go about things myself.

By the way ashame some of the trot "heavyweights" didn't intervene into that thread that parallelepipete put up (yourself, nigelirritable, dennisr). I was saying to RnB at Reading though that the standard of trot on U75, in terms of a grasp on politics/being well read etc is pretty poor. I'd probably consider myself one of the better trots on here, and that says something, considering I'm probably one of the least politically educated members in Workers Power.

I was quite surprised by some of the stuff that mattkidd was coming out with and surprised the SWP doesn't have anything to say about it!

 

[Lost Zoot]

Hi Zoot,

Since you mentioned SWP and Trotsky - I made the mistake of asking what a Trot is a while ago - not sure I'm any clearer but thought you might want a read of the replies...

k, cheers.

 

[cockneyrebel]

Hi Zoot,

Since you mentioned SWP and Trotsky - I made the mistake of asking what a Trot is a while ago - not sure I'm any clearer but thought you might want a read of the replies...

Very one sided debate though, with the better trotskyists on here not entering the debate, so it is very one sided.....

 

[bolshiebhoy]

By the way ashame some of the trot "heavyweights" didn't intervene into that thread that parallelepipete put up (yourself, nigelirritable, dennisr).

Heavyweight, me? Only in the sense of an advanced case of middle age spread! Didn't notice the thread at the time. Must have a look. I'm not sure urban75 trots are representative of much about anything. It might be interesting to ask why some trots would post on here and not others. Then again...

 

[Squatticus]

Trotsky, who was one of the key suppressors of the Russian revolution

LOL !

Pilchardman, have you ever wondered why Britain, the US, France, Japan et al. sent armies to Russia in 1919 to suppress the revolution if Trotsky (who was head of the Red Army at the time) was doing such a good job.

I mean, really!

 

[Squatticus]

with the better trotskyists on here not entering the debate, so it is very one sided.....

Don't worry, I'm here now!

 

[cockneyrebel]

Fair play squatticus, now get those anarchos into shape.....

Heavyweight, me? Only in the sense of an advanced case of middle age spread! Didn't notice the thread at the time. Must have a look. I'm not sure urban75 trots are representative of much about anything. It might be interesting to ask why some trots would post on here and not others. Then again...

Come on, on a theoretical level you'd have to be considered to be one of the U75 heavyweight trotskyists. But as said, considering the standard of trotskyists on here I wouldn't let that go to your head too much!!!

U75 trotskyists, in general, aren't representative of much, and are a very poor standard compared to most members I know in Workers Power for instance, and the same probably goes for the other UK trotskyist groups as well.

Why do some trotskyists post on here? Probably the ones who have fuck all to do at work. Most WP members think I'm a saddo for posting on here, but as it goes I've learnt quite a lot through debating on here.....

 

[TremulousTetra]

From being on urban i've got this vauge understanding that there just weirdo's and Trotsky...est...'s.To be honest i dont even know what that means despite my history GCSE, we didn't really do him.

And you throw the word around like it's an insult but then i read some mark steal thing and it's quite full of him going...."I'm a trotsky..." person. You know before i thought that was the eqvualiant of calling someone a Shitface, And i wondered why anyone would write a book saying "Look at me, i'm a Shitface"????????? I just dont knoe.


I'm fully prepared for you all to tell me to fuck off and look it up on google or direct me to the bin. But i thought i'd ask anyway.

have you got a MP3 player ? then go to this websitehttp://www.resistancemp3.lpi.org.uk/

 

[tbaldwin]

but as it goes I've learnt quite a lot through debating on here.....

What have you learnt on here?

 

[Squatticus]

And you throw the word around like it's an insult but then i read some mark steal thing and it's quite full of him going...."I'm a trotsky..." person. You know before i thought that was the eqvualiant of calling someone a Shitface, And i wondered why anyone would write a book saying "Look at me, i'm a Shitface"????????? I just dont knoe. QUOTE]

In answer to your original question, LZ, people slagging off "Trotskyists" on here are mainly using it as a shorthand for the SWP - but they aren't necessarily the same thing.

The SWP are the largest group in Britain who would call themselves Trotskyists, but actual Trotskyists - e.g. Cockneyrebel and moi - would not necessarily accept their claim. SWP are undemocratic, they have a culture of lying when they think it expedient (this, of course, is not actually very expedient, as it tends to catch them out), and they do not follow revolutionary politics. For example, at the founding conference of RESPECT, the SWP voted down a motion that called for their representatives to only be paid the wage of an average worker in order to keep George Galloway MP on board. God knows what Trotsky would have thought of that!

The SWP give Trotskyism a bad name, and as such are a right pain in the arse.

A very easy introduction to Trotsky and his ideas is this book by Tariq Ali

Should be in your local library/bookshop.

Also check out workerspower.com for some proper Trots!

 

[Sorry.]

I wouldn't say that. I'm an equal oppurtunity trot-baiter. And if anything WP are more hat-stand than the Swappies.

 

[cogg]

I wouldn't say that. I'm an equal oppurtunity trot-baiter. And if anything WP are more hat-stand than the Swappies.

For evidence, there's this headline on their website at the moment:

Iraq
No to the imperialist swindle: for a revolutionary constituent assembly!

 

[Squatticus]

For evidence, there's this headline on their website at the moment:

Iraq
No to the imperialist swindle: for a revolutionary constituent assembly!

And what's wrong with that? What's your reaction to the proposed Iraqi constitution?

 

[Random]

In answer to your original question, LZ, people slagging off "Trotskyists" on here are mainly using it as a shorthand for the SWP - but they aren't necessarily the same thing.

I'd say Steel's talk about anti-trot would probably be taken from the 1980s, then the Militant Tendency were the big trot bogeys for the right and the labour establishment, and lots of labour types were busy proving that they weren't 'trots'.

 

[mk12]

What have you learnt on here?

He's learnt some things about a mutiny in 1921.