Copper on BBc tonight re: potential Tibet protests...

[Nigel]

Bible & The Musket

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/4743414.stm

Poland banned them too, actually. Subversive stuff.

Not too relavent, but anecdotal all the same...

Poland is a very strong ally of the West , specifically America and U.K..
As for the Teletubies et al although I would criticise banning such, all the chararacters are white. Like the statue at Tiannamen SQ., this is just part of Psychic imperialism. Why do you think that all depictions of Christ are white, starting with 13th Century Spain.

 

[cantsin]

'regime?' oh please. history of human rights abuse?
westerners should seriously look at their own countries before they disapprove of others.
double standards all the way through.

bias bullshit? it's in the news - i explained a couple on another thread.
how (in tibet) different news agencies depict chinese ambulances as squad vans. how a person taken into care was in fact taken to a hospital.
i've been watching the same snippets of information as everyone else and was surpised to see.

propaganda...yeah whatever - take your pick.

what a ridiculous post

" westerners should seriously look at their own countries before they disapprove of others. "

what a crock of shit - totally laughable , we've looked at our own crap govt long enough pal , dont need an apologist for the wank Chinese regime to tell us to do so - its our corrupt , venal , cynical govts collusion and kissing of China's arse that this thread is all about !!!

 

[FridgeMagnet]

It makes sense if you are talking about nationalists criticising the Chinese govt and at the same time excusing their own regimes, but if they're all just different flavours of gangster to you, it's less relevant. There is a lot of anti-Chinese propaganda about here and that is reflected in the media, making it essential to pay close attention to sources and consistency; there is also clearly a lot of propaganda and censorship going on inside China as well.

 

[frogwoman]

It makes sense if you are talking about nationalists criticising the Chinese govt and at the same time excusing their own regimes, but if they're all just different flavours of gangster to you, it's less relevant. There is a lot of anti-Chinese propaganda about here and that is reflected in the media, making it essential to pay close attention to sources and consistency; there is also clearly a lot of propaganda and censorship going on inside China as well.

absolutely agree with that. im not going to excuse the chinese government, but it does seem that there is a lot more anti-china propaganda around now than there was say, a year ago (some of the stories i've heard sound frankly unbelievable, to be honest), and if i was to be cynical, like i usually am, tbh, i would say that a possible reason for this would be that the anti-muslim propaganda and hysteria surrounding terrorism has completely lost its credibility ... and is seen by many as just as an excuse to justify war ...

i'm not saying that the chinese government are perfect, and nor would most chinese people i know, and i'm not apologising for them but we do need to pay attention to who is saying this stuff, as well ... but people do seem to like to view china in very simplistic terms ... that said, what they are doing in tibet is obviously inexcusable

 

[nosos]

It makes sense if you are talking about nationalists criticising the Chinese govt and at the same time excusing their own regimes, but if they're all just different flavours of gangster to you, it's less relevant. There is a lot of anti-Chinese propaganda about here and that is reflected in the media, making it essential to pay close attention to sources and consistency; there is also clearly a lot of propaganda and censorship going on inside China as well.

Beyond the benefits of having a stick to beat China with in the international media if/when necessary, I'm not entirely sure who's interests are served by "anti-Chinese propaganda" given it's economic importance, particularly to America. I mean the fate of the American economy is bound up with the Chinese economy. These countries are extremely close friends.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Beyond the benefits of having a stick to beat China with in the international media if/when necessary, I'm not entirely sure who's interests are served by "anti-Chinese propaganda" given it's economic importance, particularly to America. I mean the fate of the American economy is bound up with the Chinese economy. These countries are extremely close friends.

Intertwined, but still competitors. They're still fighting over bits and pieces, including influence over assorted countries - corporate presence in Africa for instance. Also, within the US, I think that anti-Chinese sentiment on the basis of politics is internally a politically-useful outlet, in that it dilutes protest about globalisation and outsourcing to China, which might be directed against US corporations.

There's a big slab of racism there too IMO. When I was working in the States, a good half of the team were Chinese, and some of the shit they would talk about was incredible - managers saying in meetings "oh well, it doesn't matter if we drop a few people, there will be plenty of Chinese coming over here to fill their rice bowls" and so on.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

absolutely agree with that. im not going to excuse the chinese government, but it does seem that there is a lot more anti-china propaganda around now than there was say, a year ago (some of the stories i've heard sound frankly unbelievable, to be honest), and if i was to be cynical, like i usually am, tbh, i would say that a possible reason for this would be that the anti-muslim propaganda and hysteria surrounding terrorism has completely lost its credibility ... and is seen by many as just as an excuse to justify war ...

i'm not saying that the chinese government are perfect, and nor would most chinese people i know, and i'm not apologising for them but we do need to pay attention to who is saying this stuff, as well ... but people do seem to like to view china in very simplistic terms ... that said, what they are doing in tibet is obviously inexcusable

There _is_ a lot more and I would say that it is economically-driven; the US is becoming less globally powerful and China is becoming more, and also very influential specifically within the US.

 

[nosos]

I'm not saying there's no interest in slagging off the Chinese, I'm just saying it's useful as a tool to be engaged in as and when is needed. The human rights issue can be periodically picked up then put down again when China's been sufficiently slagged off. Granted there's a scramble for resources in Africa (among other things) but I still say the two countries are too dependent on each other for their to be any real government driven macroeconomic rivalry. 51% of US exports go to China and 30% of imports come from there and those are 2004 figures: this is only going to inrease as the US provides a wonderful market for the excess production of the rapidly growing Chinese economy. China's a competitor of the US in the same sense that Europe is. Enough to fuel a bit of antagonism as/when is needed (the Iraq stuff is something else entirely) but not enough to generate the sort of sustained propaganda campaign that lots of people seem to be accusing those in the west of being passive dupes of.

As for the second point, I see where you're coming from, I'm just sceptical that anti-Chinese racism can drive anything its meanigful to call "propaganda". Propaganda by its nature is more deliberate, thought through and concerted than that.

"I think that anti-Chinese sentiment on the basis of politics is internally a politically-useful outlet, in that it dilutes protest about globalisation and outsourcing to China, which might be directed against US corporations."

How do you mean? I'd have thought the opposite was true...

 

[Lea]

Poland is a very strong ally of the West , specifically America and U.K..
As for the Teletubies et al although I would criticise banning such, all the chararacters are white. Like the statue at Tiannamen SQ., this is just part of Psychic imperialism. Why do you think that all depictions of Christ are white, starting with 13th Century Spain.

I always thought that the red one Po was Chinese. She counts in Cantonese anyway. Yat Yee Sum Say...

I've seen depictions of Christ as an East Asian person...

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Oh, I don't think that all of the reports about China derive from propaganda by any means - the Chinese government does a pretty good job of making itself look bad by itself. Mind you, it doesn't seem as if they are terribly concerned by that. I was listening to someone on the radio this evening saying "they don't care what people think about the Chinese government in Islington, they care about what they think about it in Beijing, because they're the ones who could overthrow them" - just like every else tbh.

I don't think it's a war as such, but there seems to be a consistently anti-Chinese line coming from the US government in a way that goes above and beyond the usual pretence at human rights interest, which indicates to me that there is a... resentment? A desire to increase the export/import ratio?

How do you mean? I'd have thought the opposite was true...

In that US corporations are perfectly willing to outsource to China, and it's quite obvious that they are doing it, but they don't want anti-Chinese sentiment giving them political problems. So if some resentment can be moved from "we're being sacked as part of a race to the bottom with the Chinese" to "the Chinese are bad, look at the poor monks" that is beneficial for them. Not something that I think is likely to have long-term success, as people can do both.

 

[nosos]

I don't think it's a war as such, but there seems to be a consistently anti-Chinese line coming from the US government in a way that goes above and beyond the usual pretence at human rights interest, which indicates to me that there is a... resentment? A desire to increase the export/import ratio?

An insecurity at watching the rise of the power that's going to displace their hegemony perhaps?

In that US corporations are perfectly willing to outsource to China, and it's quite obvious that they are doing it, but they don't want anti-Chinese sentiment giving them political problems. So if some resentment can be moved from "we're being sacked as part of a race to the bottom with the Chinese" to "the Chinese are bad, look at the poor monks" that is beneficial for them. Not something that I think is likely to have long-term success, as people can do both.

Yeah that's what I mean. I would have thought anti-Chinese political sentiment feeds into anti-globalisation sentiment by tarring the whole system: we're in a race to the bottom with people who treat their workers like that. Though I have no direct contact with american political culture so obviously I don't know this to be the case.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

An insecurity at watching the rise of the power that's going to displace their hegemony perhaps?

Yeah, pending-post-imperial syndrome.

Yeah that's what I mean. I would have thought anti-Chinese political sentiment feeds into anti-globalisation sentiment by tarring the whole system: we're in a race to the bottom with people who treat their workers like that. Though I have no direct contact with american political culture so obviously I don't know this to be the case.

I think the anti-globalisation sentiment is pretty well entrenched anyway, and getting worse; they're really just trying to carry things on as long as possible. After all, every day means another X million dollars. But if they can shift the targets often enough, that might help - perhaps India will be next.

 

[nosos]

I'm just about to start an essay on globalisation and the american religious right. It's really interesting stuff. There's quite a sophisticated anti-globalisation discourse that, as far as I'm aware, is sneered at by the mainstream american left.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

There is, I'd definitely agree with that. Unfortunately, mainstream US political discourse is so painfully and dumbly factional these days that it can be hard to get inroads, at least when approaching from apparent points of correspondence.

 

[nosos]

Yeah

Out of interest: are there any books/blogs/websites/articles on this subject that spring to mind? I'm trying to include as much non-academic material as possible...

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I'm not sure to be fair. I did get a fair impression of http://www.americasdebate.com/ in terms of an area which has a broad base, but I've not looked at it for a while.

 

[nosos]

Cool I'll have a look cheers

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

ummm...why don't you go to china and see how this 'regime' works?
it's more modern and civilised than you think. not all this bias bullshit westerners are forced to believe.

you so don't have a clue. wanker.

Actually strictly speaking any form of government is a regime.

 

[Nigel]

twat

There going to get it anyway
might go up there and try and 'Harrass' a few stragglers
Anyone know where I can get a PLA uniform from, that should scare these pro-imperialist, racist fuckers

 

[Mortlake]

Commentators who oppose protest

What programme was it on, is there a link?

Surprised he was able to say this, alienates a lot of people. I'd be pretty upset though if all police agreed with this stance.

As soon as Duncan Goodhew (no I don't care who he is either) said something similar on the BBC on Sunday I changed his Wikipedia entry. Within a day it had been changed back. I thought OK, maybe I didn't quote references: I wonder who changed it back? Here's the answer:

[

FONT="Fixedsys"]IP address location & IP address info:
IP address [?]: 58.218.70.19 Copy [Whois]
IP address country: ip address flag China
IP address state: Jiangsu
IP address city: Xuzhou
IP address latitude: 34.266899
IP address longitude: 117.191597
ISP of this IP [?]: CHINANET jiangsu province network
Organization: CHINANET jiangsu province network
Local Time of this IP country: 2008-04-07 21:12[/FONT]​

If anyone can see a well-sourced, incontrovertable quote by some famous person talking bollox about the olympics being a-political (I am personally opposed but not to the extent of opposing etc) they might want to keep changing the person's Wiki entry to see what happens.

Anyway I butted-in on an unusual discussion about Chinese ex-pats & hope not to upset the thread....