paulhackett
voiced by strother martin
Really? Well maybe some of you should stop talking like tossers then..
cop arrested for rape
- Thread starter Pickman's model
- Start date
Pickman's model
sunset spires and twilight woods
how many of me do you think there are?
paulhackett
voiced by strother martin
how many of me do you think there are?
surely you don't expect someone to make simple distinctions between posters, after all if acab..
Pickman's model
sunset spires and twilight woods
if most intelligent people can tell the difference between these cops
this sort of cop
and this sort of cop
then it shouldn't be beyond even your wit to tell the difference between posters who've put their usernames beside their posts.
paulhackett
voiced by strother martin
if most intelligent people can tell the difference between these cops
this sort of cop
and this sort of cop
then it shouldn't be beyond even your wit to tell the difference between posters who've put their usernames beside their posts.
awwwww.. annoying isn't it?
subversplat
writer of wrongs
Right now you look a bit like you're being surly because you got caught out making a stupid comment. Just eff wye eye.
Pickman's model
sunset spires and twilight woods
i have to deal with the incurably thick at work so i'm used to encountering people like you.
paulhackett
voiced by strother martin
your post 6 and more importantly no-one mentions the victim.. as everyone is too busy banging on about the police..
i'm not saying the police are right, that you pickmans are wrong, that db is right or he is wrong, just want some balance.. and a bit less of the blanket nastiness please..
i've said far too much, so apols..
You're way, way, way out of date on that count. Whilst things are not perfect, the problems with rape investigations is no longer them being ignored at the start. Policies and procedures are in place to proactively encourage reports and the vast, vast majority of officers would never even think of going against that. And classifying an allegation of rape as "No Crime" has so many levels of checking (at team, unit, Borough, Headquarters and national level) that it is entirely and utterly justifiable on the evidence that I suspect we are now actually recording as "rape" some things that actually aren't.
We really do need to move on from outdated assumptions about what is happening and look at what is really happening now if we are to ever improve the rape investigation and prosecution outcomes.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
I don't think Froggie's perception is that unusual. It doesn't matter what changes are made at organisational level if there's a perception/confidence issue that's not being addressed effectively. Chicken and egg innit.
frogwoman
Let them eat newts
@DB:
I am currently doing some voluntary work in a rapce crisis centre (checking spelling in their leflets etc) and there isa big poster on the wall of conviction rates in england and wales from 2007-2008, and most regions of the country convictions are under 10% or under 15% and I accept that a lot of it must be what happens in the courtroom after the suspect gets charged? like caused by sexism in society/on juries?
I dont like thinking that if that happened to me then the person would just get away with it. But that is what seems to be happening and none of my female friends who i have spoken to about the issue, would tell the police if that happened, I dont know what can be done by the police in terms of a PR campaingn to address the myths - if that's really what they are?
i just cant belive that 94% of men accused of that crime are innocent???
i DONT think "all coppers are bastards" btw I'd never say that and I think that most police do their jobs professionally and to their best of their best of their ability
i havent had many bad experiences with the police and all the times i've had experiences with the police it's been fine
ffs my sister is thinking of going into the police, i could hardly think that all coppers are bastards if she did
but there does seem to be a few problems with not necessarily the organisation but the role various governments have placed on it, there was the G20 thing which actually made me very uncomfortable about staying in the country, and i realise that probably a lot of them are exacerbated/created by the media, and if you read my posts on here im generally not averse to criticisng them either ...im not posting the stuff i do to have a go at you or any other copper ...
Perception and confidence in the response of the police to an allegation of rape are based on either (a) personal experience (which is still thankfully very low) or (b) what someone tells you (which is where most people get their views from).
If you are going to take issue with the response you are dishonest if you do not take issue on the basis of what it is now rather than some way out of date history. If you constantly keep harking back to how bad it used to be you are part of the problem, not part of the cure.
And if you think about it for a moment, the police can do nothing else to change perception / confidence if they have made the changes but no-one actually acknowledges them for what they are and identifies only current issues as the only people that the new response is actually experienced by are victims of rape and no matter how good they feel it was, they are hardly likely to want to appear in an advert explaining that!
Policing - the challenges and the responses - change so fast that this applies in any number of areas - institutional racism is another classic - and further progress is constantly slowed or stopped by people failing to acknowledge any improvement and constantly moaning about things which have already changed. This does not help address the very real issues that there always are, at any particular time and place, and, in fact, constantly distracts from everyone's efforts who are trying to address them.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
db - are you suggesting that rape is still under-reported because the victims should have kept up with police initiatives and should have had confidence in those?
Edit: and it REALLY pisses me off that you selectively quoted parts of my post that you replied to. I acknowledge that it's a chicken and egg situation, you choose to deselect where I acknowledge that.
Edit: and it REALLY pisses me off that you selectively quoted parts of my post that you replied to. I acknowledge that it's a chicken and egg situation, you choose to deselect where I acknowledge that.
And I'm working checking their spelling...I'm better when I'm not posting on here honest It's pointless the police doing it - they try constantly and no-one believes them.
What DOES need to happen is people like you (volunteers and professionals in rape crisis centres) actually finding out what the police response is, working with them to make sure it is as good as it can be and then proactively encouraging victims to take advantage of it. When they do YOU need to provide support too and if there are problems with a particular case you should ensure that complaints are made (if it is an individual officer's competence, etc.) or changes are made to procedures (if it is some sort of structural thing).
How that is funded is another matter - personally I think it should be a specific part of the NHS but that may be too connected to the State to be believable too.
I am absolutely sure 94% of people accused of rape are not innocent but we need to address what the problems with rape investigations and prosecutions are - the main one is the issue of consent. This involves realistic and accurate expectations being communicated by non-police support workers to victims with an absolute encouragement to at least engage in the process to the point that the police, etc. know who the suspect was. You may convince a jury on one occasion that the victim consented ... but the second time ... the third ... Genuine rapists (i.e. those that in reality are guilty) do not change their spots and the more reports that come in, the more they are identified as suspects, the more likely they are to sooner or later get convicted.
No. I'm suggesting that rape is underreported because there are still lots of people saying how shite the police response is, don't go anywhere near it, based on extremely out-of-date information.
I only ever leave in the bit that I am responding to. I am not in the habit of listing all the things I either agree with or otherwise have no comment to make about. Sorry if you misinterpreted that as misrepresentation.
Pickman's model
sunset spires and twilight woods
snide to the end i see.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/8179353.stm
(the video at the bottom)
(and yes, i know that her experience was almost fifteen years ago, but it's still relevant - especially if practices & responses have improved since then).
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
And I'm saying that the police have a wider responsibility than to just change their organisational workings and expect everyone to be aware and respond accordingly.
Further, where they've made efforts with their organisation, how do they let people know, how do they actively change perception built over decades? Informing rape crisis centres goes part way, but the vast majority of rape victims don't even get as far as a rape crisis centre.
There's a huge difference between organisational changes and perception/understanding in the population - and that doesn't just apply to rape, as you say, institutionalised racism is another example. Telling people off for either not knowing and/or disbelieving the talk v the walk just alienates further. The police are a public service. Telling the public about how they should think and feel about the police only works if there's confidence.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
I don't think he's being deliberately snide, he just seems very defensive and shooting at shadows.
It's easier to have a discussion with Agricola. or a barney with Fat Bellied Pig, cos at least they seem to be a bit in the real world
Pickman's model
sunset spires and twilight woods
pot bellied pig.
frogwoman
Let them eat newts
thanks for your reply db
As I am working on the admin side of things I dont have much experience of working with service users
I do think that some organisations could do more to work with the police definitely and I agree with you that it needs to be a specific part of the NHS, but on the other hand it might make victims less willing to go for assistance to them if they were going to be "strongly encouraged" to follow it up ... I think another big problem isn' t with the police, its with stuff like the trial and the fact that people's sex life is brought up in court etc
a lot of people find the idea of a trial so stressful and humilating given everything you hear about it in the media that when it gets to it, they might not want to report it for that reason
not to give to much info here but i've also heard some shocing stories about the attitudes of society especially among young people in schools etc in their attitudes surrounding violence against women and the like - the "problems" arent just with the police because the police are basically a reflection of society itself ...
I agree with you re: funding: the funding issue is disgraceful, where i work they have just been allotted 50, 000 pounds which is just enough to keep going for anohther year
I have also heard that GUM and mental health clinics are in trouble as well with the funding issue as well simply because not many people are willing to camapign for better facilities for sexually transmitted diseases and mental health issues and make a public thing of it ... I am not sure how true that is mind.
As I am working on the admin side of things I dont have much experience of working with service users
I do think that some organisations could do more to work with the police definitely and I agree with you that it needs to be a specific part of the NHS, but on the other hand it might make victims less willing to go for assistance to them if they were going to be "strongly encouraged" to follow it up ... I think another big problem isn' t with the police, its with stuff like the trial and the fact that people's sex life is brought up in court etc
a lot of people find the idea of a trial so stressful and humilating given everything you hear about it in the media that when it gets to it, they might not want to report it for that reason
not to give to much info here but i've also heard some shocing stories about the attitudes of society especially among young people in schools etc in their attitudes surrounding violence against women and the like - the "problems" arent just with the police because the police are basically a reflection of society itself ...
I agree with you re: funding: the funding issue is disgraceful, where i work they have just been allotted 50, 000 pounds which is just enough to keep going for anohther year
I have also heard that GUM and mental health clinics are in trouble as well with the funding issue as well simply because not many people are willing to camapign for better facilities for sexually transmitted diseases and mental health issues and make a public thing of it ... I am not sure how true that is mind.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
Ah yeah whatever, that one.
Brilliant explanation from someone that knows (and although things have changed since, they have got significantly better, not worse (e.g. rape examination suites are now attached to hospitals and non-police premises, though the house she describes was always one of the better first attempts at moving it out of police stations).
A really important part, and one that needs stressing to health professionals and voluntary sector campaign organisations and helplines (who are sadly still prone to believe that the police response is shit and actively discourage reporting, let alone encouraging it!
) is this:A rape victim said:
I'd rather her account was not being "badged" as a police production because as I said earlier that tends to raise suspicions that it is inaccurate propoganda.
Perhaps there's scope for a documentary based on the report and initial stages of investigation, setting out what should happen according to contemporary procedures and letting people see for themselves what is likely to happen and providing a template for the polce and everyone else against which individual performance in individual cases can be assessed.
They constantly provide publicity and try to counter inaccurate publicity ... but the media (rightly) cannot be told what to print, simply do not recognise their importance in communicating accurate information to the people and far, far, far prefer to pick up on someone wittering on about how shite things are (even if they are talking about 25 years ago) rather than accurately reporting how things are now.
It is ridiculous to expect the police to single handedly deal with this issue just as it is ridiculous to expect them to single handley deal with pretty much any crime problem.
That is an issue ... but I fear that sometimes it is exaggerated as an excuse for doing nothing ...
There are ways and ways of encouraging - it doesn't need to be in your face and it can be applied appropriately to each individual case!There have been very significant changes there too ... though the effect has not been quite so dramatic or obvious as changes in police procedures. Personally I think it is misguided to try and deal with all the victim's concerns (in detail anyway) at the very start. What needs to be stressed is that everything can be taken step by step and there needs to be more overt emphasis on the fact that they (the victim) will remain in control, deciding at each stage whether or not they wish to go any further forward and being provided with accurate information of the pros and cons at each stage. As I said, even if a victim does not wish to take it to Court, there are massive advantages of securing evidence to identify the suspect and providing immediate medical and psychological support to the victim (which, at the end of the day is more important than any prosecution).
There are undoubtedly sexist attitudes at work here too - I am aware of very worrying attitudes amongst some groups of young people (not least in the context of criminal youth gangs) but I fear that sexist attitudes are also at play amongst some (mainly male) barristers and judges and that may be why improvements at the Court stage are not happening as they should (though there are some genuine issues about the fairness of trials to the defendant if some of the changes are fully applied).
Very, I'm afraid ...
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
Who has expected this, on this thread?
I took it that you were, by the way you seemed to be suggesting that the reason that any improvements made by the police had not been communicated to the people was entirely due to the fault of the police and they should not moan about people not knowing what changes have been made until they make the effort to tell them in this post:
cesare said:
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
That is not the same as singlehandedly expecting them to do anything - is it?
I even said that it was a chicken and egg situation, and complained when you didn't acknowledge that I had.
OK, OK. I believe you. Sorry I misinterpreted your post.
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