Discussion in 'Brixton' started by Brixton Hatter, Dec 7, 2009.
Or if everyone had a jet pack.
I had an argument on here, years ago, about whether CPZs were a modern version of the Enclosures Acts! It seems to be a topic that brings out some odd passions. I get the sentiment that wants a completely carfree city, though I see no prospect of that being introduced in current conditions without both serious authoritarian force and substantial resistance- comfortable personal transportation is very close to the hearts of an awful lot of people, and possibly the only personal space available to some.
So in the meantime, CPZs matter, but they remain a blunt instrument based on a piece of paper in the windscreen. They'll be smarter in future, and anyway at some point autonomous vehicles will change the equation (if the car comes to you the carclub model becomes a lot more convenient, and if they're universal you'll simply order one with kids seats or mobility aids).
Were you trying to find a parking space?
if everyone in lambeth had a garage, a large proportion of them would be council tenants and pay rent for them to the council. in addition, many, many people in lambeth don't drive and have no car so most of these garages would either be empty, sublet or used for storage.
More like any arrangement with free on-street parking is a version of the Enclosures acts, because it reserves the use of common land for a select group of people (car owners). And in London, they are a minority and broadly represent the more wealthy portion of the population.
This is a slightly ridiculous argument - it'a not like we could turn the same space into a park.
And it does at least make some sense to reserve parking space for residents.
Have you ever seen a street cleared of cars for a street party or turned into a play street? It's shocking how much extra space there is.
Streets absolutely are public space, and when cleared of cars kids play on them just like a park.
We could plant trees, greenery, provide seating.
More car club parking.
Provide lots more cycle parking (the cycle hangars in Lambeth are oversubscribed and people tell me it can be a battle just to get one installed on their street)
Even provide some general external storage space for people's other private posessions. If someone can use the space to store their privately owned car, why can't I use it to store my privately owned lawnmower/tent/inflatable dinghy?
There are loads of other ways we could use the space.
Wait until the Government introduces road charging, this will be a fairer charge on all motorist, including those with garages!
Road charging will only address the parking issue if it includes a measure of parking usage in its calculation. Use of roads to get around on, and use of roads to park your car on, are two separate things and should be charged independently of one another.
By the way another use of the space that could be freed up by removing on-street parking: fully segregated cycle lanes and/or wider pavements.
Thanks, very true - can we have a garage tax introduced to please
And where do you propose the card which currently park on the road go ?
It's enclosure act for the well off. See teuchter post here 153.
To compare the enclosure acts with CPZs is an insult to the ordinary people who lost out with the enclosure acts. You hould read some history.
erm, perhaps my post wasn't clear, it was a point put forward by someone else, which I thought ridiculous.
Away. That's the point
Where too ? Like magically disappear or round the corner to less middle class streets where people who lobby for "green streets" or whatever this is called don't live ?
We could turn it into cycle lanes or wider pavements
In Tokyo car ownership is only allowed if you have an off-street parking space and there are generally no parked cars on the streets - it makes for a much nicer urban environment and is much more pleasurable to walk in than London
People will be less likely to buy cars. Gradually there will be fewer.
And what happens to congested streets in the meantime ?
This thread started off with residents lobbying their councillors for something to resolve their problem that are too many cars parked on a lot of Lambeth streets so your solution is - we should reduce the amount of parking on the streets ?
How do you think this will go down with residents ?
Sad, but seeing someone use "fewer" correctly made me smile.
What specific hypothetical situation are you asking about?
You'd said "it's not like we could turn the same space into a park" and I responded by giving lots of suggestions as to how on-street parking space could be put to other uses.
I wasn't proposing any particular strategy to get rid of the cars to achieve this; I was simply illustrating that if we can get rid of the cars there are plenty of other things we can do with the space.
I can't tell you what would happen to the currently existing cars without knowing what strategy would be pursued.
My preference would be simply to have no privately owned cars in London whatsoever. I suspect that would be too radical for your liking. There are intermediate measures which could go some way to reducing car usage and each would have different effects. There are also all sorts of different timescales over which changes could be made.
No - perfectly happy with this suggestion, as long as there is a narrative which gets us from
"I need somewhere to park" to "I don't need a car".
Fleets of on-demand autonomous electric cars that can be stored in highly space-efficient "silos" and only go on the road when responding to a hail or taking people somewhere.
Not sure exactly what you mean by a "narrative" in this context but an intermediate step between those statements almost certainly has to be "crikey I'm spending a lot of money paying to park this car".
and takes account of the fact that there are n million people living in London all of whom are entitled to a view on their preferences for the future of personal transportation. Apart from anything else, nobody has mention Mobility vehicles or holders of disabled badges.
Obviously it's only a hunch, but I suspect that if there was a proper referendum, with all views properly put, there would be an overwhelming vote in favour of keeping cars. Until the groundswell of opinion can reverse that this conversation is rather divorced from reality.
Of course when asked most people vote for self interest. The way most people think is "what difference does it make if I drive my car to work - besides it's wet and I don't want to share a smelly bus". But n million people cannot each own and drive a car - London would collapse.
It's a classic reactionary tactic to look at the extreme point of change and say that there's no way we can jump from A to Z therefore it's not worth moving to B. Good leadership recognises that B is a worthwhile staging post. Once we are at B, C doesn't look so bad.
We already have policy to discourage driving into central London e.g. high parking charges, congestion zone. They were pretty unpopular when introduced too.
it's reactionary to suggest that what people want matters? Interesting.
Separate names with a comma.