Congestion charging outside the capital scrapped :)

[Bodmass]

But a car isn't just a means of transport -

TBH I disagree with you there. For every Jeremy Clarkson there are a dozen people who see their car as a means of getting from A to B .......or rather, and this is the important bit..from A to B via C carrying things picked up at D yesterday evening then giving someone a lift to E. ....

The genie that is out of its bottle isn't car ownership per se, it is personal mobility. Public Transport cannot do that, and proberbly never will be able to in most areas. Of course people like a little bit of comfort, but even the most basic car offers that these days.

if that was the case then we'd all have a trabant or whatever else equally dire that the state felt like doling out.

I'm certainly against state car manufacture, that has been a disaster. The words Austin and Allegro sum it up perfectly.

 

[roryer]

Road pricing is a very simple mechanism whereby those that use the highways the most pay the most towards their upkeep, whereas those that use them the least pay the least.

It means basically that they are costed in a similar way to gas or electricity.

Now if you are a driver of a big car who wants to drive 100's of miles on congested roads into or within urban areas at peak times it will mean you pay more, if you are a driver who drives a few miles on rural roads once a weak you will pay much less than you do now.

Why would anyone object to this? Why are the politicians so scared to introduce pricing. Not many people argue for flat rate charges for electricity, I mean do those who oppose road pricing also think that we should pay a fixed charge for everything regardless of how much we consume, try that one with the checkout lady at Tesco next time you buy a huge weekly shop, you should argue that you should pay the same as the person in front who only bought a litre of orange juice.

 

[Bodmass]

Why would anyone object to this?

1) It is expensive to introduce
2) Need to drive does not correlate neatly to income
3) I don't believe it will be 'revenue neutral'- it gives politicians the chance to sneak in a tax rise by the back door so to speak.
4) Civil liberties implications
5) The real winners will be big business, and the rich (who will have the benefit of clear roads they can easily afford)
6) For the first time in history ordinary people are able to go where we want when we want- lets not throw that away.

Why are the politicians so scared to introduce pricing.

Because we don't want it, and by and large we don't need it.

Not many people argue for flat rate charges for electricity

Actually that *was* once the dream.......'electricity too cheap to meter'

I mean do those who oppose road pricing also think that we should pay a fixed charge for everything regardless of how much we consume, try that one with the checkout lady at Tesco next time you buy a huge weekly shop, you should argue that you should pay the same as the person in front who only bought a litre of orange juice.

Well I would argue we are talking about government taxation, not a free market supermarket. Taxation has traditionally been based upon the abilty to pay.

You have just made a very elequant argument for the poll tax BTW- would you bring that back??

 

[fredfelt]

1) It is expensive to introduce

Probably not anywhere near as expensive as new roads. But maybe local congestion zones are a better option than a national scheme.

2) Need to drive does not correlate neatly to income

Nor does the need to eat.

The impact of congestion and the associated traffic fumes in built up areas falls on everyone who lives, goes to school, or works in our cities, regardless if they choose to drive or not.

3) I don't believe it will be 'revenue neutral'- it gives politicians the chance to sneak in a tax rise by the back door so to speak.

I don't get the problem with people not wanting to raise tax money. It has to come from somewhere. Better put extra tax on an activity which our dependancy on is making us fat and driving people to to sedatory life styles.

Even with the opportunity to get extra taxes 'they' claimed it will be revenue neutral. So with road pricing the Tax burdon seems to move away from low milage rural motorists to high milage urban drivers. It is urban driving that causes the most damange and to which there are more alternatives.

4) Civil liberties implications

There could be an issue here. But many people in London seem to be happy having their tube journies linked to them when using cards to pay for their travel. Or you pay cash to avoid this association. I'm sure you could arrange payment for road pricing in the same way.

5) The real winners will be big business, and the rich (who will have the benefit of clear roads they can easily afford)

You could easily argue the other way around of course. Many business trips really need to be done using a private vehicle and there is no option. There should always be provision to commute in cities using public transport. It seems that rural roads will cost less and so the rural driver may actually be better off.

I hope that road pricing will lead people to think about travel in our cities differently. As alternatives to driving become relatively cheaper more people will use them. Our roads become less clogged making them easier to use without having a car wrapped around your body. People might just walk and cycle more.

6) For the first time in history ordinary people are able to go where we want when we want- lets not throw that away.

Yes. I could fly from London to Cornwall tomorrow if I wanted, but I do not see that as positive.

Road pricing will not stop 'ordinary people' driving, who ever they are. But with road pricing I can see a mechanism which increases use of the roads by everyone, not just motorists.

 

[Bodmass]

Some fair points, but plenty I'd like to come back on

The impact of congestion and the associated traffic fumes in built up areas falls on everyone who lives, goes to school, or works in our cities, regardless if they choose to drive or not.

Congestion- nobody likes congestion. But if people are given the choice between a few minutes in a jam and paying a fortune (and possibly still sitting in that jam), they will opt for the jam.

Fumes- improving all the time. How close to zero can we get. I don't know, but we are getting closer all the time.

I don't get the problem with people not wanting to raise tax money. It has to come from somewhere. Better put extra tax on an activity which our dependancy on is making us fat and driving people to to sedatory life styles.

You assume cycling could replace all car trips. It couldn't. Anyway your argument is very 'nanny state'. And why should someone on a low income who drives contribute more to the education system than someone (on the same income) who doesn't.

There should always be provision to commute in cities using public transport.

To some extent only. You assume people commute in neat little lines from the suburbs to the centre. That is certainly true in London, and Manchester and Birmingham also have CBDs. But many urban journeys just aren't like that. In many smaller cities the centre is retail and maybe local government and all the offices/factories/warehouses are clustered around a ring road.

Our roads become less clogged making them easier to use without having a car wrapped around your body. People might just walk and cycle more.

Less clogged roads for the rich then. I'm not sure if less clogged roads are better for cyclists, and it certainly makes no difference to walkers.

Yes. I could fly from London to Cornwall tomorrow if I wanted, but I do not see that as positive.

When did I mention flying? The fact that you could chose to go to Cornwall (by whatever method) tomorrow I don't see that as a bad thing. It's something that was the preserve of the rich only 2 or 3 generations ago, and the middle class until quite recently. It seems to me these things only become a problem when ordinary people can do them.

You really do believe "you can't trust people" don't you?

 

[fredfelt]

Bodmass

I admit, support congestion charging is part of I hope that I have to see our society become less dependant on the private car. The freedom a car can offer is wonderful, but massively destructive.

I'm heading off the subject now, but bear with me. Speaking personally I always thought I needed a car and was dependant on my car. My view started to change after living in Holland for a while. In general their cities are much better places to be in than ours, the main reason is having the freedom to be able to enjoy them without a car.

I was reading about Groningen recently. 60% of journeys in this city are made by bike. Those 60% of journeys consumes just 10% of the transport budget. To me this seems farer than expecting having to put up with noisy, busy polluted streets. I don’t see this as less congested roads for the rich who can drive. I see this is a cleaner and healthier environment that everyone can access and get around – without needing to drive.

I cannot see this happening in our car dominated society. But I see road pricing as a glimmer of hope in shifting our aspirations from being able to drive everywhere will few restraints to access to our country to everyone, without having to rely upon a car.

By the way, I whish I had the spare cash to be able to afford to own and run a car!

 

[Bodmass]

I'm heading off the subject now, but bear with me. Speaking personally I always thought I needed a car and was dependant on my car. My view started to change after living in Holland for a while. In general their cities are much better places to be in than ours, the main reason is having the freedom to be able to enjoy them without a car.

This is proberbly the point to agree to disagree but remeber this wasn't just about urban driving- this was a *national* satellite tracking scheme.

FWIW I don't think Holland has congestion charging anywhere, so perhaps it isn't the best way....

 

[citydreams]

Here we go again...
Tolls planned for major motorways
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...WAVCBQ0IV0?xml=/news/2007/10/30/nroads130.xml

 

[Cobbles]

Here we go again...
Tolls planned for major motorways
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=SNLV24SX0AS03QFIQMFSFFWAVCBQ0IV0?xml=/news/2007/10/30/nroads130.xml

No no no - Nulabor will realise that whatever focus groups they've been armpit-sniffing from, this will lead to them losing their ministerial Jags as the vast majority of the electorate (as distinct from the teeny minsicule green shrill mob) just want to drive around freely.