congestion charge - what is it for?

[trashpony]

: Topline results from first wave of Mori tracker received. Key highlights:

• Support for WEZ
Londoners - 29%
WEZ residents - 40%
• Awareness of the extension going ahead
Londoners - 53%
WEZ residents -72%
• Awareness of the Feb 2007 start date
Londoners - 2%
WEZ residents - 7%
• 20% of WEZ residents and 24% of Londoners believe the CCS will operate as two separate zones.
• 69% of WEZ residents are aware that they are entitled to apply for a 90% discount

So not very many people want it and yet it's going ahead anyway. Hmm ...

Nice to know the mayor's listening to public opinion. I wonder how much the public consultation cost? Should have just gone ahead and not bothered pretending they give a shit really.

 

[kyser_soze]

Respect campaigns for the money used for New Labour’s £30 billion road building programme and the £9 billion tax break received by the airline industry to be diverted into subsidised bus and train travel - afterall transport is responsible for 14% of our emissions, yet under New Labour bus and train fares have rocketed while the cost of motoring has gone down.

So what you're arguing for here is that £30billion of the UKs money be pumped into London to support it's public transport system, is that correct?

Now I'm a London first kinda guy, but that's a bit excessive, no?

 

[Udo Erasmus]

So what you're arguing for here is that £30billion of the UKs money be pumped into London to support it's public transport system, is that correct?

Now I'm a London first kinda guy, but that's a bit excessive, no?

No, obviously to fund transport across the UK

 

[kyser_soze]

So is that £30bn just for new roads? Or are you suggesting that all money spent on roads should be spent on PT? I do agree with taxing aviation fuel (altho there are innumberable international agreements that mean that a single country doing this would have problems), but are you suggesting that no money be spent on roads?

 

[Crispy]

spend the money on pt of course. an excellent idea.

 

[bruise]

citydreams - it would seem that you should have access to the information to contradict this point. Can you?

Shortly afterwards the government announced massive cuts in the London transport budget that wiped out any money raised by the charge. Transport for London say that ministers cut its budget for 2004-5 by £125 million and by £200 million in 2005-6. This is almost the same amount as the £130 million a year raised from the charge. Transport for London argued that this would create a huge funding gap between the better services it hoped to provide and the budget available. Therefore far from the congestion charge being channelled into improvements in public transport it has in essence gone to Gordon via the back door. The government have slashed the budget of London transport by more than the money raised through the congestion charge: They give crumbs with one hands & take away a dozen loaves with the other!

 

[Giles]

So not very many people want it and yet it's going ahead anyway. Hmm ...

Nice to know the mayor's listening to public opinion. I wonder how much the public consultation cost? Should have just gone ahead and not bothered pretending they give a shit really.

Various surveys were done for newspapers and others about support among those affected for the Western extension to the CC zone.

As I recall, not one showed a majority in favour. So Ken is going ahead anyway. You are right, why bother with a consultation if you have no intention of listening to the results?

A "consultation" IME means: "ask a few people in a survey, slanting the questions to try to get the result we want. If we DO get the "right" result, trumpet this loudly as proof of how democratic we are. If we DON'T, shut up and implement the policy anyway."

Bollocks to them all.

Anyway, I shall just drive into London in my minibus, which is exempt. Less fuel-efficient and bigger than my little car, but hey, £8 is £8!

Giles..

 

[Fruitloop]

People seem to want to keep driving around until we're all three feet under water. I say fuck'em.

 

[citydreams]

So not very many people want it and yet it's going ahead anyway. Hmm ...

Nice to know the mayor's listening to public opinion. I wonder how much the public consultation cost? Should have just gone ahead and not bothered pretending they give a shit really.

In actual fact it was the largest consultation that has ever been done in the UK.

The Mayor had already announced his intention to extend the zone when he stood for his second term. The consultation was about trying to find the right boundaries / time periods / pricing structure and to make sure that the modelling was as inclusive as possible.

 

[Giles]

People seem to want to keep driving around until we're all three feet under water. I say fuck'em.

I am going to keep driving around until we are three feet under water.

Then I'm going to buy a amphicar, or similar.

Giles..

 

[citydreams]

citydreams - it would seem that you should have access to the information to contradict this point. Can you?

I don't remember any cuts to the London budget. If anything TfL successfully put the case for extra funding for the Olympic bid in its last spending review.

As part of the announcement
TfL received its funding
allocation for the next five
years. The Government gave its
support for TfL to borrow £3
billion over the next five years
to finance the delivery of
capital projects under a new
'Prudential Borrowing' regime.
Also as part of the package,
£789 million of additional grant
was made available to TfL.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/stakeholder-newsletters/pdf/transport-for-london-news-special-2004i.pdf

 

[Udo Erasmus]

CityDreams dodges that there were massive cuts to the London Transport Budget that were more than any money raised by the congestion charge. The money he mentions is not for the benefit of working class people. Here's good article by the Chair of Tower Hamlets Respect on Livingstone's vision of London and how it is not benefiting working class people: http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/article.php?article_id=8155

So is that £30bn just for new roads? Or are you suggesting that all money spent on roads should be spent on PT? I do agree with taxing aviation fuel (altho there are innumberable international agreements that mean that a single country doing this would have problems), but are you suggesting that no money be spent on roads?

Basically, Blair & Brown and the three neo-liberal parties all support the cutting back of public transport and more road building. More and more roads are not sustainable: we need an alternative.

I would refer you to a very interesting study by Lynn Sloman, this authorative report shows how local schemes such as school travel plans, workplace travel plans, etc., could cut urban traffic from between 15% and 33%.

www.roadblock.org.uk/resources/LessTrafficWherePeopleLive.pdf
Also on a similar subject, Friends of the Earth did a good study on schemes to replace school buses and the "school-run" with the "walking bus":
www.foe.co.uk/resource/factsheets/walking_bus.pdf

Out of interest, the government could start by facilitating cycling. Isn't it incredible that in Amsterdam over a quarter of journeys are taken by bike, in Stockholm - a fifth and in London barely 2%? - this is a problem of city planning. In other countries cycling is far more possible and safer, but in Britain's congested roads some parents would be afraid to let their children cycle.

In Preston, Respect councillors have played a key role in passing a major motion promoting public transport, rapid transport systems & trams which now have become part of Preston's overall transport plan.
Respect councillors have also passed succesful motions on energy efficiency in council buildings and requiring the council to carry out an environmental audit of all their policies.

 

[zerodegreeburn]

Out of interest, the government could start by facilitating cycling. Isn't it incredible that in Amsterdam over a quarter of journeys are taken by bike, in Stockholm - a fifth and in London barely 2%? - this is a problem of city planning. In other countries cycling is far more possible and safer, but in Britain's congested roads some parents would be afraid to let their children cycle.

This is true to a point but comparing cycling rates between London and Amsterdam is always bollocks because the land there is flat. Not fairly flat with a hill here and there it is as flat as a pancake. London is in places, especially in the north where i live (haringey) very hilly, obviously a deterant for Joe Bloggs (especially as we're getting to the point where 1/3 adults are obese like America). Also the rain and cold is a major issue when it comes to promoting cycling, both of which will be very prominent in the next 6 months.

A great scheme that some people here may benefit from is Cycle Scheme (http://www.cyclescheme.co.uk/faqs.php), basically you pay for a bike and get the tax back via your earnings.

As for the comments about buses not getting better, pff, you just have to live and use them once a while in London to notice they are more reliable. Maybe people are comparing the data to timetables 4-5 years ago when yes there were 10 buses due over the course of one day, but did they turn up? And was it logged if not (hmm )? Overland trains are also now on-time more often than not, especially in the smaller stations.

 

[London_Calling]

Imo, transport in London in 2006 is like being on another planet compared with 4-5 years ago. The difference is beyond remarkable.

I can't believe people here are trying to argue otherwise; it's like reading the Evening Standard on that issue (or the Daily Mail on the NHS) - totally divorced from the reality.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Imo, transport in London in 2006 is like being on another planet compared with 4-5 years ago. The difference is beyond remarkable.

I can't believe people here are trying to argue otherwise; it's like reading the Evening Standard on that issue (or the Daily Mail on the NHS) - totally divorced from the reality.

This isn't the argument being put. We were comparing the policies of the GLC of slashing bus/tube fares that were massively popular with the working class with the regime under New Labour where bus and train fares have risen dramatically.

 

[citydreams]

there were massive cuts to the London Transport Budget that were more than any money raised by the congestion charge.

Please provide a link.

I would refer you to a very interesting study by Lynn Sloman, this authorative report shows how local schemes such as school travel plans, workplace travel plans, etc., could cut urban traffic from between 15% and 33%.

have a look at TfL's budget for these type of schemes - it's huge! the problem is getting them co-ordinated and signed up to. It's all good in theory.

 

[kyser_soze]

We were comparing the policies of the GLC of slashing bus/tube fares that were massively popular with the working class with the regime under New Labour where bus and train fares have risen dramatically

Isn't it the case that non-Oyster fares have risen, but Oyster prices haven't as much? - an Oyster bus fare is £1 generally which is what they've been for some time isn't it? I used to by travelcards so only ever noticed a few quid going on the monthly charge once a year...

 

[zerodegreeburn]

It was 80p for ages, then 70p when Arriva first took it over, then it went to 80p, then a pound, then a pound 20. Then Oyster cards started to roll out, and it was 80p a single with and £1.50 a single without, now its £1 for a SINGLE bus ride even with a Oyster card at peak times... I think that's right anyway from what my memory serves me.

At least kids can travel free now (tho i fucking missed that one lol)

 

[kyser_soze]

...and old fowks get their freedom passes too...

 

[Crispy]

It was 80p for ages, then 70p when Arriva first took it over, then it went to 80p, then a pound, then a pound 20. Then Oyster cards started to roll out, and it was 80p a single with and £1.50 a single without, now its £1 for a SINGLE bus ride even with a Oyster card at peak times... I think that's right anyway from what my memory serves me.

At least kids can travel free now (tho i fucking missed that one lol)

In bristol, it costs £2.70 to get to my folk's place from the station on the bus (last time I used it) - that's a single. Londoners don't know how good they've got it.

 

[ELO]

Traffic Changes on local roads surrounding the congestion charge
2nd annual report

From 28 sites monitored continuously since 2002
Southwark +1%
Kensington & Chelsea 0%
Tower Hamlets -11%
Camden -13%
Westminster -5%

Sites monitored periodically within the boroughs of Wandsworth, Lambeth and Hackney have shown decreases in traffic of up to 9%

Hmm, interesting thread.

Do those figures include the Marylebone Road, or Tower Bridge, both of which are gridlocked with folks avoiding the C zone..............