Congestion charge proposed for Manchester - how was it for London?

[ajdown]

Did you use this same route previous to 2003?

Yes, although I was living in a different place, I moved to Camberwell in 2000, Oval in 2003, and Brixton Hill in 2006 and have used the Bricklayers Arms - Tower Bridge part of the '42' during all that time.

 

[ajdown]

But you choose to drive, so it's your choice to pay the CC. You don't need to use your car, you choose to because you don't like the alternatives.

Most of the time I don't drive in unless I'm transporting awkward items to/from work - but the con charge affects bus users as well because of the displaced congestion it has created, concentrated on to just a few roads instead of giving people options.

I'd have thought left wingers would have been against taxation, which is what the CC is in truth.

 

[citydreams]

Not sure how I can be 'clearly misinformed' about something I do every day and experience for myself... but there you go.

Apart from the fact it's unnecessary

The London congestion charge removed 70,000+ private vehicles from the network. Completely. Not as in diverted to driving around the zone, but completely removed from the network.

The full economic cost benefit ratio of the London congestion charge is massive.

The revenue has been invested back into public transport to ensure that London has enough buses, pedestian crossings &c. to meet the huge (and rising) demand.

not taking into account anyone's ability to pay - or need to use a car in Central London

er, you mean like the *fact* that blue badge users are exempt? Or that the scheme hours are designed to minimize private trips and focus on business trips.

See you're clearly misguided. You're missing something anyway.

 

[ajdown]

The revenue has been invested back into public transport to ensure that London has enough buses, pedestian crossings &c. to meet the huge (and rising) demand.

Really? I'd love to know where it's all gone then.

I'd love to know where "70,000+ cars" figure came from too... that can't be daily can it.

 

[bluestreak]

ajd, you genuinely think that it's harder to get around london by bus now than it was before? i wonder why, it seems clear to me that there has been massive improvement in bus services and the time it takes to get places by bus in london since the CC charge came in.

 

[ajdown]

Maybe I'm just unfortunate by using Tower Bridge Road, where all the traffic that might have gone over London Bridge/Southwark Bridge/Blackfriars Bridge might have otherwise gone - but certainly the journey from Elephant seems much slower than it used to be.

The 42, however, remains utterly shit regardless of the traffic levels.

 

[tommers]

I'd have thought left wingers would have been against taxation, which is what the CC is in truth.

you've got left and right mixed up.

 

[citydreams]

Really? I'd love to know where it's all gone then.

mostly onto buses, or the journeys were merged into other trips ie. economising on car use.

I'd love to know where "70,000+ cars" figure came from too... that can't be daily can it.

Yes, daily!

From very extensive monitoring..
see: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre/archive/4339.aspx

 

[ajdown]

That report is from 2004.

"As predicted, there have been small increases in traffic on the Inner Ring Road, which is being satisfactorily managed."

Like fuck is it.

 

[moose]

The issue with Manchester is that public transport is only any good within the outer CC ring, so there are going to have to be mega carparks round the edges to enable people to drive up to the ring, leave their vehicles and get public transport into the city.

 

[citydreams]

That report is from 2004.

..you can also have the 2005, 2006, 2007 or 2008 report if you like.

All of which say that the 70,000+ private vehicles have been removed, and continue to be removed, from the road network.

Happy?

 

[marty21]

Most of the time I don't drive in unless I'm transporting awkward items to/from work - but the con charge affects bus users as well because of the displaced congestion it has created, concentrated on to just a few roads instead of giving people options.

I'd have thought left wingers would have been against taxation, which is what the CC is in truth.

it's not a tax, you don't have to pay it, it is a charge or a toll

 

[bluestreak]

I'm also looking at the Housing In London report, as published by the major just recently, which has a graph showing that the amount of londoners who consider congestion and public transport major problems has dropped by about 20-30% since 2002. So ajd clearly isn't alone, but he's part of a decreasing minority.

 

[Oswaldtwistle]

That report is from 2004.

"As predicted, there have been small increases in traffic on the Inner Ring Road, which is being satisfactorily managed."

Like fuck is it.

I agree there, ;like you say Tower Bridge is gridlocked (a by-product of London's geography because of limited crossings of the Thames)

The issue with Manchester is that public transport is only any good within the outer CC ring, so there are going to have to be mega carparks round the edges to enable people to drive up to the ring, leave their vehicles and get public transport into the city.

Which overall might not reduce congestion over the broad region by that much. There is already some evidence of this in London, with cars parked willy-nilly round zone 2/3 tube stations while car parks in the centre sit empty, and as you rightly point out it would be a much bigger problem in Manchester.

 

[T & P]

Ajdown's particular route or area of interest isn't a lot better than it used to be, so clearly that means the Congestion Charge has failed for the whole of London.

Keep up people.

 

[se5]

Ajdown's particular route or area of interest isn't a lot better than it used to be, so clearly that means the Congestion Charge has failed for the whole of London.

Keep up people.

But my route is much better so clearly the congestion charge is a success!

 

[HackneyE9]

In Greater Manchester a referendum is being held in December on whether or not to introduce charging on specified routes around Manchester City Centre.

I'll be voting against it as i'm taxed enough, thanks.

What i would like to know is:

Has it improved levels of congestion in London?
Will it spread further and further until we will all pay?
Has public transport improved in London?
Has it improved motorists lives or journey times?
If a referendum was held in London tomorrow how would you vote, knowing what you know?
Is it easy to dodge paying it?

Answers in a white box under this one please.

Er....154 posts and yet the OP hasn't been back - odd, eh?

Perhaps he could enlighten us on some of the _detail_ of Manchester's toll, I mean "tax", plan?

 

[JWH]

Which overall might not reduce congestion over the broad region by that much. There is already some evidence of this in London, with cars parked willy-nilly round zone 2/3 tube stations while car parks in the centre sit empty

So what you're saying is that cars that used to be concentrated in the centre of town have been dispersed to locations further outside the core?

 

[Oswaldtwistle]

So what you're saying is that cars that used to be concentrated in the centre of town have been dispersed to locations further outside the core?

Based on what I've read, and my experiences of walking round central London, and seeing empty car parks, yes.

 

[ajdown]

So what you're saying is that cars that used to be concentrated in the centre of town have been dispersed to locations further outside the core?

That's the big problem with the congestion charge; it doesn't stop people using their cars, it just stops people using them in Central London.

Take where I live as an example. It's a residential area, just off of the A23. Every morning my road becomes full of commuter cars, who drive from wherever, park, walk through the alleyway to the bus stop, to get a bus down the hill to Brixton tube station and then travel the rest of the way to work. In the past, they'd just have driven all the way to work, or a very nearby car park.

So, yes, less traffic in the middle - but those in the suburbs are bearing the brunt of the displacement. I've lost count of the number of times I've ended up sitting in the car, parked on a double yellow line, waiting for a commuter to get there and leave just so I can park in my own street somewhere. Compare it to a weekend when there's usually space for 4 or 5 cars most of the time.

 

[marty21]

That's the big problem with the congestion charge; it doesn't stop people using their cars, it just stops people using them in Central London.

Take where I live as an example. It's a residential area, just off of the A23. Every morning my road becomes full of commuter cars, who drive from wherever, park, walk through the alleyway to the bus stop, to get a bus down the hill to Brixton tube station and then travel the rest of the way to work. In the past, they'd just have driven all the way to work, or a very nearby car park.

So, yes, less traffic in the middle - but those in the suburbs are bearing the brunt of the displacement. I've lost count of the number of times I've ended up sitting in the car, parked on a double yellow line, waiting for a commuter to get there and leave just so I can park in my own street somewhere. Compare it to a weekend when there's usually space for 4 or 5 cars most of the time.

ask your council to put in a restricted parking zone, there are schemes which restrict parking for an hour a day 12-1 for example, which stops commuter parking

 

[DJWrongspeed]

That's the big problem with the congestion charge; it doesn't stop people using their cars, it just stops people using them in Central London.

I'd say the CC is bit of both actually, people stopping using their cars and leaving outside as above, but didn't they already park & ride pre-CC?

But what do you suggest Ajdown to tackle London's fuked up traffic problem, with or without the CC there's still too much traffic right?

 

[tarannau]

To be fair, before you start to take AJDown seriously, please bear in mind that this is a bloke who carries on about 'weaving' bicycles being the greatest cause of congestion and road accidents. Oh, and he even catches the same buses as the rest of us in Brixton, only on his all signs of white customers speaking English have been exterminated.

He has an, ahem, uniquely distorted take on everyday life imo.

 

[ajdown]

ask your council to put in a restricted parking zone, there are schemes which restrict parking for an hour a day 12-1 for example, which stops commuter parking

If they do that, then they'll want to charge residents for a permit to park their own car outside their own houses. I've seen it happen before.

 

[tarannau]

Well, build a garage or secure some off-road parking. You don't own the stretch of road outside your house you know.

One of the things that grates me most about the suburbs is that people tie themselves up in angry curtain-twitching knots about the possibility of others parking outside their house. IIRC you're living not far away from one of London's main traffic arteries (the South Circular), not in some isolated backwater. Surely a small charge for resident's parking would be reasonable if preserving your space is all that important.

 

[ajdown]

I'd say the CC is bit of both actually, people stopping using their cars and leaving outside as above, but didn't they already park & ride pre-CC?

But what do you suggest Ajdown to tackle London's fuked up traffic problem, with or without the CC there's still too much traffic right?

I think a lot of the problem is that people seem to commute further and further, instead of working locally, and the few thousand increase in salary that often generates is far less than the actual cost of increased fuel/travel, and an extra hour each end of the day doing that travelling.

Technology exists that would enable a lot of people to work from home, conducting meetings online via webcam/headset or even in virtual worlds.
It'd also benefit companies from requiring smaller premises to work from, reducing costs. The only difficulty with that is what appears to be an apparent lack of trust from employers that you are actually doing your 8 hours a day if your boss can't keep checking on you every 5 minutes.

Another simple option for buses is to increase capacity by changing single deckers to double deckers where practical (the 42, for example, used to be a double and is now just a very overcrowded single) with possible some minor rerouting if there is a problem with a low bridge for example. The 'bendy buses' haven't really helped, turning the capacity of a double decker into the length of two buses instead, and often end up blocking junctions and making it more dangerous for cyclists due to the extended turning arc.

Whilst I am indeed all in favour (through personal circumstances) of making buses more accessible, I rarely see enough disabled people travelling around given the apparent reason for getting rid of the Routemaster in favour of bendy buses. Many of the double deckers I see are perfectly accessible enough for wheelchairs (they're fitted with ramps) that are really no different to bendy buses, only shorter. You've also got a lot of roads that just aren't designed for bendy buses.

What is needed is an incentive to get people on to public transport by providing a more convenient, more frequent, more comfortable service - rather than simply trying to tax the motorist off of the road. Successive goverments, of both sides, by overtaxing in the wrong places and underinvesting the right places (public transport), have created the problem we have now, and it's going to take quite a while to sort out because they're still unwilling to spend the money necessary and take drastic action like road widening where it may be needed.

It's not gonna happen overnight. But it might.

 

[ajdown]

Well, build a garage or secure some off-road parking.

That'd be really useful with an upstairs flat...

 

[tarannau]

You realise that you can rent garages and parking spaces that don't adjoin your home, yes?

 

[HackneyE9]

...and take drastic action like road widening where it may be needed.

Genius

Since the A23 is pretty chocka, perhaps they could widen it by knocking down your flat - possibly with you still in it?

 

[tarannau]

Worse still is that AJ lives close to one of the biggest bottlenecks in London, with Streatham High Rd virtually on his doorstep. How they'd widen the roads nearby is a mystery to anyone.