Conflict vs Crass

[Dubversion]

Wasnt it the Govts decision to deploy Trident that sent CND membership through the roof? my parents were members at the time and I doubt they have ever heard of Crass!

that was later, i think, and like i said earlier, it's hard to pinpoint any one thing, but my experience on the ground was very much that the swell of politicised / peacenik youth in the early 80s was very largely a consequence of Crass and their fellow travellers championing the cause.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

why not? if they influenced many thousands of people who in turn restored the credibility and energy of a peace movement which then grew massively in numbers as a consequence, i'd say that was

Well, I don't agree with the "who in turn", or "the credibility", or "the energy". The anarcho-punk fringe was a very, very small component of what was going on at that time, and not a particularly influential one (not least because it basically denounced everybody else as a sell-out) although one which, as now, had an extremely inflated opinion of its own extent and influence.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

that was later, i think, and like i said earlier, it's hard to pinpoint any one thing, but my experience on the ground was very much that the swell of politicised / peacenik youth in the early 80s was very largely a consequence of Crass and their fellow travellers championing the cause.

Gawd.

I'd imagine the influence of figures like Tony Been and Ken Livingstone may have been slightly greater.

 

[Dubversion]

Gawd.

I'd imagine the influence of figures like Tony Been and Ken Livingstone may have been slightly greater.

i think Crass' influence on people aged, say, 15-20 in 1980 was significantly greater than Tony Benn's or Ken Livingstone's.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

i think Crass' influence on people aged, say, 15-20 in 1980 was significantly greater than Tony Benn's or Ken Livingstone's.

I would be absolutely certain you were wrong. For a start, most people wouldn't even have heard of Crass.

Like I say, the anarcho-punk fringe doesn't half tend to overstate its own extent and influence.

 

[Dubversion]

I would be absolutely certain you were wrong. For a start, most people wouldn't even have heard of Crass.

sorry, but if you'd have asked me in 1981 who Benn or Livingstone were, i'm not sure i'd have known. I did know who Crass were, as did most of my peers, and i was in CND.

indeed, my awareness of such figures and my increasing politicisation in the 80s was a direct result of CND membership and expose to such ideas

 

[Donna Ferentes]

I think you and your "peers" would have been extremely unrepresentative in that respect.

 

[Dubversion]

I think you and your "peers" would have been extremely unrepresentative in that respect.

well we'll never know, will we? but my experience can't be that atypical? why would a kid in a south coast town discovering politics through music know who Ken Livingstone was?

 

[RubberBuccaneer]

C.mon Donna I'm only asking to see if you were around at the time?

 

[laptop]

in the first meeting of the Cardiff Peace comitte I quoted some Crass lyrics ( 15 yr old revolutionary ) , eventually this merged with a reformed CND, which wasn't actice before this meeting, so Crass came before Cardiff CND revival.

And I saw that happen all over the UK.

To suggest that Penny was some kind of Svengali figure is indeed an insult to everyone else in the band - they were and are quite capable of holding their own in any argument. And an insult to many, probably most, of the people who were into the band.

And it suggests a profoundly reactionary view of popular movements (and probably the rest of history) - I'd include vanguardism in the set of "profoundly reactionary views" and I observe that vanguardists, such as the various followers of Leon Trotsky, were deeply upset by the things that the wider Crass circle catalysed, because once more something that they didn't and couldn't understand had come up and taken them by surprise, and they didn't and couldn't own it.

Anyway, when I first met Penny he wasn't a hippy, he was a beatnik

 

[Termite Man]

C.mon Donna I'm only asking to see if you were around at the time?

his birthday is on his profile ( 1965 )

 

[RubberBuccaneer]

his birthday is on his profile ( 1965 )

Snap! so at least he was around a the time

 

[audiotech]

Anyone remember that crap NME review which said that Crass could be seen as Nazi's? Their reasoning being because they dressed in black and the speaker cabs were shaped like an H (two aitches = Hiel Hitler ). It turned out that most of the writers on the NME were out of their faces on drugs at the time. With crap reviews like that it's not suprising.

 

[Dubversion]

i'm intrigued, actually, because i have an inkling that Donna was / is a Crass fan (i'm sure he'll shudder at such a term).

 

[Donna Ferentes]

I am and was. I like them very much. They said things I remember in a way that causes me to rmember them. But I don't believe they were that influential. Partly because I don't think pop music is that influential: I think that people interested in political pop music are also interested in politics. They're not just listening to records, they're watching television and reading magazines and books. I don't think a band reaching some thousands of people are likely to have the same influence as politicians appearing on Question Time (audience what, eight million?) and being in the papers and the news all the time. It's just not feasible. So Crass were mentioned in the House of Commons? Tony Benn was speaking there as often as not!

I do think that the anarcho-punk fringe vastly exaggerates its own extent and influence. This is partly because it tends to be outside other political movements and parties, which not only leads it to underestimate their reach, but puts it in a position whereby, you know, every time they're doing something there's lots of people like them. (They also have a strong tendency to think that they are "the movement" - and everybody else is a sell-out or a threat - which naturally leads them to think themselves more important than they are.)

But they're not that many in the wider scheme of things.

 

[A Dashing Blade]

Anyone remember that crap NME review which said that Crass could be seen as Nazi's? Their reasoning being because they dressed in black and the speaker cabs were shaped like an H (two aitches = Hiel Hitler ). It turned out that most of the writers on the NME were out of their faces on drugs at the time. With crap reviews like that it's not suprising.

Anyone remember the crap Sounds review by Gary Bushell, he was championing Oi at the time and they obviously pissed him off big time.

Live they hit the spot tho', the threat and reality of violence, the sheer wall of noise, TV's & overhead projectors showing different 2 second images for the whole gig . . .

 

[laptop]

Anyone remember the crap Sounds review by Gary Bushell, he was championing Oi at the time

Imagine how gutted the band would have been if he had liked them

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Funnily enough he did write a subsequent piece which was quite favourable to them.

 

[laptop]

And IIRC they were even more gutted...

 

[northernhord]

Anyone remember the crap Sounds review by Gary Bushell, he was championing Oi at the time and they obviously pissed him off big time.

I think Crass wrote sham 69 sendup of Hurry up Harry called Hurry Up Gary, he was a bit of a roast beef and warm ale type of bloke ol Bushell, tosser!

 

[audiotech]

Hurry Up Garry (The Parsons Farted) by Crass

The bastards, what are they playing?
Don't like the music, don't like the words, don't like the sentiments,
Well keep it for the birds and bees, boys, bastards.
Yes that's right, I stepped out of line,
What do you want? What do you want?
As long as I play it moderate, that's fine,
Well, fuck off runt, fuck off runt.
Pick your nose with your ball pen, put your snot in sounds,
Back to your play pen with your street cred minds.
You whimper and whine from the pages of the press,
Ridicule and criticise those who want to change this mess.
There's people our there who are trying to live,
People who care, now, what do you give?
So many parasites living off our sweat,
So many fuckers in for what they can get,
Punk ain't about your standards and your rules,
It ain't another product for the suckers and the fools.
Your sit behind your typewriters shovelling shit,
Rotting in the decadence of your crap lined pit,
Waiting for the action so you can grab a part,
But it stinks so bad, who's going to smell your fart?

"CAN YOU PUT ME ON THE GUEST LIST?
IS THERE ANY FREEBIE DRINK?
I CAN'T WRITE UNLESS I FEEL WELL PISSED."
Piss off, you fucking stink.

 

[RubberBuccaneer]

To suggest that Penny was some kind of Svengali figure is indeed an insult to everyone else in the band - they were and are quite capable of holding their own in any argument. And an insult to many, probably most, of the people who were into the band.


Anyway, when I first met Penny he wasn't a hippy, he was a beatnik

So how did the band start then? Didn't he put it together?

 

[RubberBuccaneer]

Dressing like that in an identical uniform and giving away patches with your album is going to create a lot of clones - for whatever reason...

Besides I thought they were going to split up in 1984 no matter what.

 

[laptop]

So how did the band start then? Didn't he put it together?

Bunch of mates, most already living in the same house for years, some already making music, talk late into the night. Have bright idea. Actually get it together.

That's over-simplified, but much less over-simplified than the Leader Figure assumption. Yes, Penny talks a lot, but I saw things being argued through and him accepting that something other than what he proposed was going to happen. A few words from G after a long row were often decisive. She did lots of the design.

 

[JE:5]

Crass were great, one of my favourite bands of all time.

 

[gloryhornetgirl]

I used to 'know' him, colin, biffa and the others for a bit whilst working at thames poly.

Biffa - I think I might know him (I thought i was Biffo but I could be wrong). Is his real name Steve? If so, he was the best man at my wedding.

 

[ddraig]

Biffa - I think I might know him (I thought i was Biffo but I could be wrong). Is his real name Steve? If so, he was the best man at my wedding.

not sure sorry, think there may have been a steve as well, just knew him as biffa (or guv to his face)
biffa was the tallest iirc, or second to col anyway.
they chased us across our venue whilst packing up once but then we did cross the line.

 

[Pigeon]

I think you and your "peers" would have been extremely unrepresentative in that respect.

Cast yr mind back to early 80s...how many young kids walked around with the words "Tony Benn" on the backs of their jackets?

 

[Pigeon]

Partly because I don't think pop music is that influential...

But it is - or atl east, at its best it can be: I became interested in "politics" as a teenager precisely because of pointers from people like Bowie (for all that people remember "that" fascist salute, I'd already discovered Orwell directly because of the "Diamond Dogs" associations) and the Clash.

 

[audiotech]

Cast yr mind back to early 80s...how many young kids walked around with the words "Tony Benn" on the backs of their jackets?

Funny you should say that as I knew someone in the 80's who wore this on the back of their denim jacket.