Conflict vs Crass

[Sunspots]

Listen to Penis Envy by Crass

Life's too short...

Maybe that one's musical by their standards, but IMO, that's not really saying much.

Give me the Dead Kennedys or The Pop Group anyday. Political as fuck, but with a bit of flair and excitement.

 

[RubberBuccaneer]

an army of clones? you're telling me people as strong and wilful and powerful as Eve and Gee and Steve were just Rimbaud-powered automatons carrying out his political will?

You SURE about this?

No their fans - Crasstafarians.

 

[Dubversion]

No their fans - Crasstafarians.

well Crass were totally aware of that, and felt very compromised by it, which is half the reason they called it a day. So that would suggest it was never their intention.

There are always people who are sheep, you can't blame a band for that.

But the flipside of that is that Crass created the infrastructure for the entire anarcho-punk movement - labels, studios, distribution. They were instrumental in the revival of fortunes of CND. They politicised tens of thousands of people, were discussed in Parliament.

 

[northernhord]

From what I remember there was some arguement back in the day about the use of violence, conflict were up for it and Crass were pacificts, I remember reading something that Conflict used to take baseball bats to gigs in case there was any trouble.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

. They were instrumental in the revival of fortunes of CND.

Hmm. Other way round, I'd have said.

 

[Dubversion]

Hmm. Other way round, I'd have said.

do you think? in what sense?

 

[Sunspots]

But the flipside of that is that Crass created the infrastructure for the entire anarcho-punk movement - labels, studios, distribution. They were instrumental in the revival of fortunes of CND. They politicised tens of thousands of people, were discussed in Parliament.

Yep, I can't stand their music, but their importance was all of the above.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

do you think? in what sense?

In the sense that there was a political movement at the time, of which CND was a major component, and from that movement came the audience for Crass.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

But the flipside of that is that Crass created the infrastructure for the entire anarcho-punk movement

"You say that like it's a good thing."

 

[Sir Belchalot]

an army of clones? you're telling me people as strong and wilful and powerful as Eve and Gee and Steve were just Rimbaud-powered automatons carrying out his political will?

You SURE about this?

I think RubberBuccaneer's referring to Crass followers (many of whom had sheep-like tendencies) rather than band members.
How is Paco anyway? The last I heard he was due to have some sort of risky operation. He always seemed like a nice bloke to me which is more than can be said about other Cornflakes members.

 

[RubberBuccaneer]

In the sense that there was a political movement at the time, of which CND was a major component, and from that movement came the audience for Crass.

I disagree, in the first meeting of the Cardiff Peace comitte I quoted some Crass lyrics ( 15 yr old revolutionary ) , eventually this merged with a reformed CND, which wasn't actice before this meeting, so Crass came before Cardiff CND revival.

 

[Dubversion]

yeh, i'd agree (for once ) with Rubber Buccaneer. I think Crass' endorsement of CND made it 'credible' and altered the popular impression of it as a resting place for doddery old biddies and Quakers. Certainly in my area, the burst of membership for the CND group i was involved in had a very definite anarcho-punk element at first, which then broadened in time.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

I think Crass' endorsement of CND made it 'credible' and altered the popular impression of it as a resting place for doddery old biddies and Quakers.

Credible? To whom? The anarcho-punk fringe?

 

[RubberBuccaneer]

yeh, i'd agree (for once ) with Rubber Buccaneer. I think Crass' endorsement of CND made it 'credible' and altered the popular impression of it as a resting place for doddery old biddies and Quakers. Certainly in my area, the burst of membership for the CND group i was involved in had a very definite anarcho-punk element at first, which then broadened in time.

True the first ant-nuclear march I went on ( not CND as they weren't around at he time ) was punker tastic

 

[Idaho]

Crass did some great stuff musically. General Bacardi, Berketex Bride, er.. some other ones...

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Personally, I think that both bands were incredibly important, in broadening my horizons and thinking about things that hadn't really floated across my conciousness before. I agree with a great deal of what's been written above abour Crass, i.e. politically very influential and musically challenging (both for good and for bad sometimes).

But as for Conflict just being a bunch of "shouty punks" or whatever is a bit rich really. Their album The Ungovernable Force is a fantastic distillation of what had gone before politically and musically - then there was To a Nation of Animal Lovers, which definitely got me and other I knew into the whole issue of animal rights and the like (coming from rural cornwall, i thought that all animals were for was to be shot or ate).

There wasn't any emnity between the bands AFAIK, indeed the Conflict album I referred to earlier had a tune called Crass, which opens with the following:

Up rose a movement titled C.R.A.S.S.
Who spoke of anarchy and freedom putting power to the test?
A caring group of people who worked outside the system
Aiming for liberty and peace using passive resistance
They took on a larger battle challenging all the rights and wrongs
The state, sexism, war, religion. Love and hope spread from their songs
Punk is dead - now refuse to be led
Fight wars - not wars - oppose all power they said

as well as

Yes we still have their fucked system, regulations, laws and threats
Whose fault is that? Not theirs! They're still doing their bit, are you?
People don't climb on the pedestal; they are pushed there

Both well worth checking out, I still play music from them both and the power and anger has remained noticeable over the passing years.

 

[Dubversion]

Credible? To whom? The anarcho-punk fringe?

i fear you're being deliberately obtuse since i was pretty clear about this.

My memory of the situation:

CND in the late 70s were a very low membership, marginalised group perceived as staid and middle-class.

Crass and other elements of anarcho-punk / peace punk community gave CND very vocal support, and mentioned them on sleeves, in communiques etc (and i believe had stalls at gigs). This was a catalyst for growing numbers of young people - initially of an anarcho bent - to reconnect with the Peace Movement - to an extent, yes, by Crass giving it 'anarcho cred' (much as Thom Yorke has done for various issues, or Chris bloody Martin or whatever).As these things do, this gathered its own momentum as a consequence so that in a few years CND's membership increased massively.

Of course, it's impossible to fully unpick this from the other reasons for the rise of support - the very real possibility of a war resulting from the Afghan situation, for example - but to deny Crass played a major part would be daft.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Of course, it's impossible to fully unpick this from the other reasons for the rise of support - the very real possibility of a war resulting from the Afghan situation, for example - but to deny Crass played a major part would be daft.

No it wouldn't. Crass just weren't that influential. They didn't have an impact on wider society.

Ronald Reagan did though, as did the radicalisation in the Labour Party in the late Seventies.

I would bet that most people involved in CND never ever heard of Crass.

 

[linerider]

I dont know, I knew him when he used to promote bands around New Cross. He is a big guy though.

I think that was Colin(the singer)who ran the Venue.
Me and Colin used to fight nazis at Crass gigs in the early 1980's and most of the time we won.
Crass had some good things to say,but it only worked if you lived on a farm in Essex,Conflict talk about what it's like to have fuck all and want to change the world

 

[Dubversion]

No it wouldn't. Crass just weren't that influential. They didn't have an impact on wider society.

Ronald Reagan did though, as did the radicalisation in the Labour Party in the late Seventies.

I would bet that most people involved in CND never ever heard of Crass.

i think you're wrong, but it's hard to prove. Crass were massively influential - it's suggested that they actually would have had chart hits but the sales were suppressed by the BPI, stuff like that. They energised an entire movement that in itself was significant but also had a knock-on effect.

I was on the ground, DF, helping to run a youth CND group, and i saw the first burst of new faces - all very anarcho-punk in nature - and then the snowballing effect into youth as a whole. I'm not for a moment saying everyone who joined CND in 1981 did so because of Crass, i'm saying that they were an important factor in snowballing membership.

 

[RubberBuccaneer]

May I just ask how old you are Donna?

 

[Dubversion]

Crass themselves certainly thought they played a part:

At the same time, having discovered that CND did actually still exist, albeit in a downtrodden, self-effacing manner, we decided to promote its cause, something that at the time CND seemed to be incapable of doing for itself. From then on, despite screams of derision in the music press, we also displayed the peace symbol at gigs.

Our efforts on the road slowly brought CND back to life. We introduced it to the thousands of people who would become the backbone of its revival. A new and hitherto uninformed sector of society was being exposed to a form of radical thought that culminated in the great rallies, demos and actions that continue today.

The true effect of our work is not to be found within the confines of rock'n'roll, but in the radicaiised minds of thousands of people throughout the world. From the Gates of Greenham to the Berlin Wall, from the Stop The City actions to underground gigs in Poland, our particular brand of anarcho-pacifism, now almost synonymous with punk, has made itself known.

 

[RubberBuccaneer]

Crass themselves certainly thought they played a part:

Not to blow their own trumpet like

 

[linerider]

i think you're wrong, but it's hard to prove. Crass were massively influential - it's suggested that they actually would have had chart hits but the sales were suppressed by the BPI, stuff like that. They energised an entire movement that in itself was significant but also had a knock-on effect.

I was on the ground, DF, helping to run a youth CND group, and i saw the first burst of new faces - all very anarcho-punk in nature - and then the snowballing effect into youth as a whole. I'm not for a moment saying everyone who joined CND in 1981 did so because of Crass, i'm saying that they were an important factor in snowballing membership.

My problem with Crass can be summed up by one of their own lyrics"left wing right wing they're all the fucking same".at Crass gigs the band would try to talk to gangs of nazis trying to wreck the show,but at Conflict gigs we would kick fuck out of the cunts.I once got stabbed at a Dirt gig,trying to save Pete from Crass from being beaten up by a big group of fash,they attacked the gig and he thought it was clever to go out and have a chat with them,i ran out to save him and got stabbed in the arm for my trouble.
Fucking Hippies

 

[Dubversion]

i know what you mean about them. TBH Dick from Culture Shock /Subhumans is still like that - somebody lamped him on stage a while back and he apologised for winding the guy up.

and there's a Crass live album where you can here how ineffectual their pacificism was against people who wanted a ruck.

but at least it was a consistent and honourable viewpoint, even if it was bollocks

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Crass were massively influential - it's suggested that they actually would have had chart hits i'm saying that they were an important factor in snowballing membership.

That doesnt make them "massively infuential" or anything like it.

 

[Dubversion]

That doesnt make them "massively infuential" or anything like it.

why not? if they influenced many thousands of people who in turn restored the credibility and energy of a peace movement which then grew massively in numbers as a consequence, i'd say that was massively influential.

if you consider the amount of people who's lives were touched directly or indirectly by Crass, the anarcho punk movement they largely spawned or the causes they championed, i'd say that was massively influential.

etc etc etc

 

[RubberBuccaneer]

That doesnt make them "massively infuential" or anything like it.

Well for unpoliticised pumk rockers it was. We're talking about a large youth movement here who didn't give a fuck ( as teenagers ) who listened, may not of agreed but certainly for me , growing up in a labour voting familly, was the first I'd heard of anarchism.

Just wondering if people have the debates we had in youth club these days.
You talk to my sister she wouldn't have a clue.

 

[RubberBuccaneer]

How old are you Donna?

 

[Belushi]

Wasnt it the Govts decision to deploy Trident that sent CND membership through the roof? my parents were members at the time and I doubt they have ever heard of Crass!