Compulsory Voting?

[phildwyer]

A spoilt ballot paper just gets ignored

Complete and utter bullshit. Spoiled ballot papers are counted. Anyone who decides not to vote in ignorance of this fact is indeed irresponsible and lazy.

 

[Aldebaran]

I could not - in terms of my own morality or worldview or politics - have voted in the last election. A spoilt ballot paper just gets ignored, at least a low turn-out leads to questions being asked.

Do you really believe that? Then why do you see no change?
If everyone votes and a majority casts protest votes, that would provoke something.

Your determination to pigeonhole me as intellectual lazy simply because I couldn't in good conscience find anyone to give my vote is fucking offensive.

Possibly. Yet your refusal to even cast a protest vote is "fucking" offensive to all those who suffer under what the UK's "foreign policy" and its complicity in the US'es "foreign policy" caused them and causes them to suffer, wouldn't you agree? That includes me.

And how do you suggest i 'represent myself' in a national election? i'd be very interested in your fulsome response

You represent yourself if you go out to vote. If you cast a protest vote you represent yourself in that protest, or do you represent the protest of someone else? .
If you are interested in really representing yourself, go into poilitics or try to find a politician able to represent you.

salaam.

 

[Dubversion]

so you suggest that to protest against party A - a bunch of capitalist warmongering bastards - i should vote for Party B - another bunch of capitalist warmongering bastards - therefore risking the possibility that Party C - the underdog bunch of capitalist warmongering bastards - gets in by default?

must be great in a world as simplistic as yours, Aldebaran. I'm a 37 year old man who's voted many times and studied politics at degree level, but apparently i'm intellectually lazy.

hmm

 

[Aldebaran]

the more you repeat this allegation of laziness, the more

a) you reveal yourself as an idiot
b) you reveal yourself as someone who doesn't even bother to read and react to other people's posts
c) i think you're not worth bothering with

The more you post such futile attempts to insult you reveal yourself as someone
a) with no notion of any decent upbringing
b) who is convinced his posts are the only ones I "should" read and reply to, and at that someone who thinks I can type faster then I need the time to read and type replies (maybe my keyboard is too slow to follow the speed of my brain)
c) not worth the time I took to reply.

salaam.

 

[phildwyer]

I'm a 37 year old man who's voted many times and studied politics at degree level, but apparently i'm intellectually lazy.

Well you are apparently lazy enough to not even bother finding out whether spoiled ballot papers are counted! I must say that it is a strange and reprehensibly negligent politics degree which fails to teach its students such a basic fact of political reality.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

not heard of the seach function then...

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=160767

 

[WouldBe]

Well you are apparently lazy enough to not even bother finding out whether spoiled ballot papers are counted! I must say that it is a strange and reprehensibly negligent politics degree which fails to teach its students such a basic fact of political reality.

Whose this Mr(s) S. Ballot that's going to win and change things.

The government dont give a shit about the majority that don't vote so why should they be bothered by a few spoilt ballots?

 

[Aldebaran]

so you suggest that to protest against party A - a bunch of capitalist warmongering bastards - i should vote for Party B - another bunch of capitalist warmongering bastards - therefore risking the possibility that Party C - the underdog bunch of capitalist warmongering bastards - gets in by default?

No, you should vote blank.

must be great in a world as simplistic as yours, Aldebaran.

I would wish my world was simple, but it can't be.

I'm a 37 year old man who's voted many times and studied politics at degree level, but apparently i'm intellectually lazy.

So you studied politics yet you can't even evaluate the impact and hence the value of protest votes?

salaam.

 

[phildwyer]

Whose this Mr(s) S. Ballot that's going to win and change things.

The government dont give a shit about the majority that don't vote so why should they be bothered by a few spoilt ballots?

In many elections in America we're allowed to write in any name we want. Several candidates have won in this way, including some who didn't want to be elected. But my point is that people who decide not to vote should at least be *aware* that a spoiled ballot would be counted. Otherwise they really are being ridiculously lazy--how much effort does it take to find that out, ffs?

 

[Dubversion]

No, you should vote blank.

if you vote blank it counts as a spoilt paper and is thus completely disregarded. Therefore it is widely held to have less effect on the electoral process than a non-vote. I've already made it clear (although your tendency to utterly disregard other people's posts might mitigate against you having noticed it) that if a 'None Of The Above' option was permitted i'd vote unfailingly.

So you studied politics yet you can't even evaluate the impact and hence the value of protest votes?

actual, you condescending swine, it is my study of politics and the electoral process that makes me uncomfortable with tactical voting and fully aware of the futility of protest voting (ie the spoilt ballot).

 

[Aldebaran]

Whose this Mr(s) S. Ballot that's going to win and change things.

The government dont give a shit about the majority that don't vote so why should they be bothered by a few spoilt ballots?

Of course they don't bother about those who DON'T vote. If those people ALL did vote, and cast protest or what you call "spoiled" ballots, don't you think it possible that this result would create some political tsunami waves?

salaam.

 

[WouldBe]

In many elections in America we're allowed to write in any name we want. Several candidates have won in this way, including some who didn't want to be elected. But my point is that people who decide not to vote should at least be *aware* that a spoiled ballot would be counted. Otherwise they really are being ridiculously lazy--how much effort does it take to find that out, ffs?

Maybe spoilt ballots are counted but it won't change anything. The candidate with the highest number of votes will be elected.

The only way a 'none of the above' vote would work is if N.O.T.A got the highest number of votes and the election was declaired void and had to be repeated. But until the parties stop squabbling over the middle ground N.O.T.A will carry on winning and we'll be stuck with the current government.

 

[Dubversion]

Of course they don't bother about those who DON'T vote. If those people ALL did vote, and cast protest or what you call "spoiled" ballots, don't you think it possible that this result would create some political tsunami waves?

salaam.

no. You clearly know fuck all and really should stop lecturing people from a position of ignorance.

In repeated election campaigns here and abroad it has been clearly noted that a low turnout causes more concern in the halls of power than spoilt ballots, which can be dismissed as silly or wrong or whatever

 

[maldwyn]

What’s wrong with lazy?

Isn’t ‘democracy’ big enough to defend the right of an individual to withhold their vote?

 

[Dubversion]

Maybe spoilt ballots are counted but it won't change anything. The candidate with the highest number of votes will be elected.

The only way a 'none of the above' vote would work is if N.O.T.A got the highest number of votes and the election was declaired void and had to be repeated. But until the parties stop squabbling over the middle ground N.O.T.A will carry on winning and we'll be stuck with the current government.

spoilt ballots are counted, but not analysed in any meaningful way. low turnouts are.

 

[subversplat]

Complete and utter bullshit. Spoiled ballot papers are counted. Anyone who decides not to vote in ignorance of this fact is indeed irresponsible and lazy.

Counted and then summarily dismissed. There is no provision for a spoilt ballot win in parliament.

 

[phildwyer]

if you vote blank it counts as a spoilt paper and is thus completely disregarded. Therefore it is widely held to have less effect on the electoral process than a non-vote.

Garbage. Spoiled ballots are counted. Nothing is held to have less impact on the electoral process than not participating in it. Perhaps you would care to enlighten us as to where, or by whom, it is "widely held" otherwise?

 

[Dubversion]

fuck off, dwyer

 

[phildwyer]

spoilt ballots are counted, but not analysed in any meaningful way. low turnouts are.

More absolute horseshit, utterly inconsistent with having "studied politics at degree level." There are many analyses of spoiled ballots, as any student of politics knows. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Aldebaran]

if you vote blank it counts as a spoilt paper and is thus completely disregarded.

It can be "disregarded" for being a non-vote, yet is would not be "disregarded" on it political message if all those who do not vote, would cast such blank or spoiled voted.

Therefore it is widely held to have less effect on the electoral process than a non-vote.

That is an utterly wrong assessment in a society where there is no system of compulsory voting. They are USED to it that many people don't vote. They are NOT used to it that these people would cast a protest vote.

actual, you condescending swine, it is my study of politics and the electoral process that makes me uncomfortable with tactical voting and fully aware of the futility of protest voting (ie the spoilt ballot).

Actually, trying to "insult" only demonstrates inability to construct a decent argument.
Actually, it is my personal experience with the electoral process in other countries then yours that makes me aware of the impact of such protest votes on the minds of politicians, hence on the political parties, their programs, their concern about "contact with the electorate getting lost" etc.. etc..
Maybe you should leave your self-righteous cocoon and look somewhat across the borders.

Besides that, for someone who claims to be an academic you surely demonstrate a strange low level of discourse.

salaam.

 

[Dubversion]

fuck off, dwyer

 

[laptop]

A massively condensed history of the franchise

1. People struggle - and typically die - for the right to vote, which is denied them
2. In the period after they win it, non-voting requires a bloody good excuse
3. People start to realise that voting isn't all that:
   • It rapidly degenerates to capitalist choice: you are utterly free to buy anything - er, anything that is brought to market, that is...
   • The self-interest of parties as organisations is sufficient explanation for the rapid narrowing of that choice
4. People struggle - and pay fines - for the right not to vote.

 

[Dubversion]

Besides that, for someone who claims to be an academic you surely demonstrate a strange low level of discourse.

i never claimed to be an academic - if you think doing a degree qualifies you as an academic you have very low standards.

and the reason you believe i have a strange low level of discourse is because i long ago realised to spot people who just weren't worth engaging with properly.

it's why i've got Dwyer on ignore, for example

 

[Aldebaran]

i never claimed to be an academic - if you think doing a degree qualifies you as an academic you have very low standards.

I'm not familiar with the education system inyour coutnry. If someone says to have studied to "degree level", that means to me the person finished an academic education.
Do you claim the standard for such diplomas are lower in your country then they are in the countries where I received mine?

and the reason you believe i have a strange low level of discourse is because i long ago realised to spot people who just weren't worth engaging with properly.

I rather think it is that you do your very best to get spotted to have no degree of decent upbringing coming with you.

it's why i've got Dwyer on ignore, for example

I don't see any reason to put Phildwyer on "ignore".

I don't even see reason put you on "ignore" although, if you studied "politics" to whatever degree which - in your own words- in fact isn't a degree (then what is it, please enlighten the illiterate), you should be aware of it that calling a Muslim a "swine" isn't all that "political" correct.

salaam.

 

[kakuma]

forcing people to vote is ridiculous

since when have people been to blame for the fact that political parties don't represent them. voting every four years changes fuck all, why should i not do something that might change my life on the day they decide to hole their farce of an election?

it's even more predictable than football,

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Why do you think it a bad idea to make sure every citizen with a right to vote actually takes up the responsibility that comes with such a right?
People have their mouth full of "freedom and democracy" while they are even too lazy to use it. If people show to be too lazy to be worth to live in a democracy, they should be ordered to use their right to vote for the democracy's and hence their own good.

salaam.

Umm, that is not democratic? Being forced to vote hardly sounds like democracy in action to me.

I think people don't vote because they do not feel represented.

My Dad thinks they don't as they are happy with the way things are.

Probably a bit of both.

 

[krtek a houby]

Now, I'm not a UK citizen but I'm entitled to vote over here, so I always make sure I do.

I get pissed off with those who complain about the state of this, that & the other but don't bother to vote.

Lethargy and antipathy won't change anything, at least when you go out and vote; it's a step in the right direction.

I'm not against bloody revolution, either but that's never going to happen, is it?

 

[Cobbles]

As with everything, sticks work less effectively than carrots. As Voting is part of citizenship, why not offer an incentive for voting also linked to citizenship, like £100 off the voter's next tax bill.

 

[detective-boy]

I don't see any reason to put Phildwyer on "ignore".

Why does that not surprise me?

You deserve each other...

 

[detective-boy]

... you should be aware of it that calling a Muslim a "swine" isn't all that "political" correct.

Funny ... Didn't think there was any place for western concepts in the Muslim world ...