Communist states

[isitme]

that's why I want you to lead

so who do we kill?

 

[camouflage]

The truth is that whichever state capitalist regime you choose the basic class nature of capitalism remains in place. The only difference is that instead of being shafted by the capitalist class, workers are shafted directly by the state which is controlled by a political and bureaucratic elite.

cut out the middle-man, always a step forward in my opinion.

 

[camouflage]

I'm sorry, but we're going to have to stop following and idolising leaders if we're going to get anywhere.

Why be sorry...

In fact I hold that ideology itself is bad, and that ideologies should be seen as self-serving brain slugs that use people to live.

 

[IC3D]

No, no, no! I'm not your man.
I don't want to be lead and I don't want to lead.
The smiley face on your post. Is it wearing blinkers?

Only a true leader would say that

 

[JimN]

Want to know more about achieving a world without leaders, the state, money or classes? A world where production is organised democratically and directly for use and not for profit?
Visit: www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/

 

[Wolveryeti]

to the best of my knowledge, there has NEVER been ANY truly 'communist'state, merely state capitalist dictatorships

There has also never been a true free-market capitalism, merely distorted economies ruled by oligopolitstic interest groups.

 

[JimN]

There has also never been a true free-market capitalism, merely distorted economies ruled by oligopolitstic interest groups.

This is because capitalism and the state have developed together. Like conjoined twins, each relys on the other.
There can be no freedom from the state without overthrowing capitalism. We cannot free ourselves from capitalism without abolishing the state.
But we CAN do it!

 

[Combustible]

You people know perfectly well what others, including Derf, mean by a "Communist state". They mean a country living under the dictatorship of a Communist party - ie, a Leninist party. (Some of those parties are called Communist. Others have other names, but are easy to identify.)

If you mean self styled Communist states why are DPRK included.

I think Communist Cuba has made considerable achievements in some areas whilst being under a state of siege.

 

[DotCommunist]

It's ironic that despite mcarthyite rabid reds under the bed scare tactics, it's actually communist states and movements that have been frequently undermined and destroyed/destabilised by the CIA. the Yanqui threat eh? Backed when necessary by overt military incursions. The only domino effect we ever saw was the consistent US led knocking down of any regime who even smelt of socialism, in favour of anyone rightist. Ignore those who got carted off to cellars they never left, these are people we can do business with. Right guys? Cigars all round.

cunts

 

[poster342002]

People's Republic of China
Republic of Cuba
Democratic People's Republic of Korea
Lao People's Democratic Republic
Socialist Republic of Vietnam
USSR
Cambodia
Angola

What communist states do you admire?

The best of a crap bunch was probably Yugoslavia before Milosovic fucked it over. They didn't seem to have anything like the respssion, shortages etc that other communist states did.

 

[TomUS]

Didn't you read the posters on the eastern side? The wall was to keep fascism out, not the inmates in!

Yea, the great anti-fascist wall certainly saved E. Germany form a fascist invasion. They built it just in time.

 

[JHE]

If you mean self styled Communist states why are DPRK included.

You are a silly sausage.

1. The term "Communist state" is not mine. I was simply pointing out that people here understand perfectly well what is meant by it when it is used, for exmple, at the top of this thread.

2. It is not a matter of any state being 'self-styled' as a 'Communist state'. The regimes we are talking about call the systems they rule 'socialist', not 'communist'. They have also been called 'socialist' by almost all of their supporters and most of their opponents. The rulers and fans of such supposedly socialist countries have claimed all sorts of daft things, but they do not claim to have achieved communism - and, indeed, by their doctrine, communism would be stateless.

3. Why on earth would the grim North Korean dictatorship, the DPRK, not be on the list? It is a country ruled by a Marxist Leninist dictatorship which has established and presides over its (all too hungry) version of 'socialism'.

I think Communist Cuba has made considerable achievements in some areas whilst being under a state of siege.

A siege? Come off it! There's a US embargo (which has recently been relaxed a bit, I'm glad to say), not a siege.

In your imagination, is the US using its military might to prevent ships entering or leaving Cuban harbours and to prevent aircraft landing or taking off from Cuban airports? You must think tourists who go on holiday to cuba are very brave!

 

[dylans]

You are a silly sausage.

1. The term "Communist state" is not mine. I was simply pointing out that people here understand perfectly well what is meant by it when it is used, for exmple, at the top of this thread.

2. It is not a matter of any state being 'self-styled' as a 'Communist state'. The regimes we are talking about call the systems they rule 'socialist', not 'communist'. They have also been called 'socialist' by almost all of their supporters and most of their opponents. The rulers and fans of such supposedly socialist countries have claimed all sorts of daft things, but they do not claim to have achieved communism - and, indeed, by their doctrine, communism would be stateless.

3. Why on earth would the grim North Korean dictatorship, the DPRK, not be on the list? It is a country ruled by a Marxist Leninist dictatorship which has established and presides over its (all too hungry) version of 'socialism'.



A siege? Come off it! There's a US embargo (which has recently been relaxed a bit, I'm glad to say), not a siege.

In your imagination, is the US using its military might to prevent ships entering or leaving Cuban harbours and to prevent aircraft landing or taking off from Cuban airports? You must think tourists who go on holiday to cuba are very brave!

No but they have held the country under a crippling embargo for 50 years, mined their harbours, attempted to invade and tried to assassinate their leadership countless times. They also maintain a US base on their territory in direct violation of their sovereignty. Until very recently US citizens were at risk of prosecution simply for visiting.

So, yes I would call that a siege.

 

[poster342002]

I imagine Cuba without the embargo would have probably turned out more like Yugoslavia before Milosovic ruined it. Not perfect - but better than it currently is and a darn sight better than the likely alternative.

 

[dylans]

I imagine Cuba without the embargo would have probably turned out more like Yugoslavia before Milosovic ruined it. Not perfect - but better than it currently is and a darn sight better than the likely alternative.

Originally Castro wasn't pro soviet. The US forced him to turn to Moscow by turning off the taps.

 

[poster342002]

Originally Castro wasn't pro soviet. The US forced him to turn to Moscow by turning off the taps.

Yes, I also remember about that. Who knows what could have happened had the US just left Castro alone?

 

[Combustible]

3. Why on earth would the grim North Korean dictatorship, the DPRK, not be on the list? It is a country ruled by a Marxist Leninist dictatorship which has established and presides over its (all too hungry) version of 'socialism'.

Well the DPRK claim that their Juche ideology surpasses Marxism and Leninism. In general I agree the argument that X Communist state is/was not true Communism is silly and is pointless semantics but it is interesting how the criteria appears to shift to and from whether or not they self identify themselves or not when it is convenient.

The embargo has done considerable damage to Cuba but on top of that there has been the support for invasion attempts/terrorism. Considering the proximity of Cuba and the US and their relative power I don't think siege is a terrible way to describe it.

 

[dylans]

Considering the proximity of Cuba and the US and their relative power I don't think siege is a terrible way to describe it.

I don't think siege is too far off the mark. The US has done its damnedest to strangle the Cuban revolution from its birth

 

[PeterTCA]

One has got to be cautious in looking at "plucky" Cuba. A simple test - true for all Marxist regimes - is to go and visit yourself.

I am impressed with Cuba's medical system. At the basic level they have our equivalent of "community nurses" who regularly visit people whether they are fit or sick. Then they have round-the-clock dental and GP facilities with hospital beds attached. At the top end of the scale they have impressive hospitals aimed at wealthy foriengers and - again true for all Marxist regimes - beds for party officials.

My own dealings were with Cuban psychiatry. They are much like British services in the 50's with emphais on physical fitness and regimented quarters. Notable - again true for all Marxist regimes - is the diagnosis of "delusional consciousness"; a political thought disorder. Where dissent is criminalised it is always matched by a psychiatric condition. Many of the more psychotic patients - along with hard-core criminals - were exiled to Miami in days gone by.

I go back to my earlier observation: viz. Marxist regimes (and in their time they have all claimed to be "true" Marxists) last so long simply because they have huge departments of secret police. And of course no Anarchist has prosper under these conditions.

 

[Streathamite]

And of course no Anarchist has prosper under these conditions.

or under most conditions, tbh

 

[Fuchs66]

Communism seems to work best in smaller countries for sure, Tito did a good job uniting the warring baltic states in Yugoslavia, he's my communist top trump

Yep they should have fought in their own countries the bastards

 

[Streathamite]

Yep they should have fought in their own countries the bastards

ah well, it's a lot warmer in sarajevo than it is in Vilnius...

 

[Streathamite]

There has also never been a true free-market capitalism, merely distorted economies ruled by oligopolitstic interest groups.

couldn't agree more, fwiw

 

[THINK!]

As far as other "communist" states, I admire Cuba (and Venezuela, although I don't know if that counts). Castro has managed miracles in that tiny little island and stood up to everything the US has thrown at it.

"managed miricles"? like what?

 

[ViolentPanda]

"managed miricles"? like what?

97-98% literacy.

"first world" health-care from a "3rd world" economy.

That's two "off the top of my head".

 

[JHE]

My own dealings were with Cuban psychiatry. They are much like British services in the 50's with emphais on physical fitness and regimented quarters. Notable - again true for all Marxist regimes - is the diagnosis of "delusional consciousness"; a political thought disorder. Where dissent is criminalised it is always matched by a psychiatric condition.

I know that psychiatry was abused in that way in the Soviet Union. I have never heard before that it is in Cuba. Is this something that has been documented by, say, Amnesty International? Is there anything easily available that you'd recommend reading on the subject?

 

[JHE]

...yes I would call that a siege.

Considering the proximity of Cuba and the US and their relative power I don't think siege is a terrible way to describe it.

I don't think siege is too far off the mark.

The trouble with calling the embargo a blockade, as the Cuban regime and its fans do, or a siege, as people have done on this thread, is twofold.

First of all, it is inaccurate. Secondly, and more importantly, it feeds the belief, fostered by the regime, that all that is wrong in Cuba - even now half a century after the revolution - is due to external factors. It's all the fault of the enemy to the north. It prevents people thinking about the failures of Cuban socialism.

If the US had the good sense fully to lift the embargo, the Castro bros would be denied the opportunity to blame Uncle Sam for the privations suffered by the Cuban people.

 

[PeterTCA]

I know that psychiatry was abused in that way in the Soviet Union. I have never heard before that it is in Cuba. Is this something that has been documented by, say, Amnesty International? Is there anything easily available that you'd recommend reading on the subject?

My post was based more on personal experience. There is a wealth of information on the subject. You might try "The Politics of Psychiatry in Revolutionary Cuba" Brown and Lago, Transaction Books, 1992.

 

[derf]

97-98% literacy.

"first world" health-care from a "3rd world" economy.

That's two "off the top of my head".

My list would contain their excellent prison system.
http://www.cubaverdad.net/torture_in_cuba.htm
http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y03/nov03/10e8.htm

And Castro's humanitarian attitude.
http://www.therealcuba.com/page5.htm

Hope his brother is a bit friendlier than he was.

 

[tbaldwin]

The thing is what was Cuba like before Castro? And what would it be like now if the US had their way.
Look at Haiti look at Jamaica....Give me Authoritarian Socialism over the those any day.......As a wise man once said there is only one thing worse than authoritarian Socialism.......everything else.