Commas immediately after brackets

[Donna Ferentes]

Donna's style book says "don't".

Well, it doesn't, as it happens. But it does say that it's amazing how many times, when you look at a sentence, you can dispose of this unwanted and unsightly superfluous punctuation. Even in your example, the comma after (NATO) is not really necessary.

 

[past caring]

Disagree - the effect of losing the comma is, in that particular instance, to render "the North Atlatic Treaty Organization (NATO) the European Union (EU) a single entity.

 

[hiccup]

But shouldn't a sentence with brackets be able to work if the brackets weren't there at all? If there should be a comma without the brackets, there should also be one with, no?

 

[nogoodboyo]

Yeah, but what purpose are the brackets serving?

They're making it read more easily, and establishing the relationship between the two parts - which is that the bit in parentheses clarifies the rest. I have many more complicated examples which illustrate that the brackets are necessary to preserve readability.

Like this:

"Established Securities Market: (i) a US national securities exchange, (ii) a non-US securities exchange (including but not limited to the London International Financial Futures Exchange, the Marché à Terme International de France, the London Stock Exchange, the Frankfurt Stock Exchange and the Tokyo Stock Exchange), (iii) a regional or local exchange or (iv) an interdealer quotation system that regularly disseminates firm buy or sell quotations by identified brokers or dealers by electronic means or otherwise (including but not limited to NASDAQ);"

The brackets in (ii) are IMV necessary to avoid confusion.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Disagree - the effect of losing the comma is, in that particular instance, to render "the North Atlatic Treaty Organization (NATO) the European Union (EU) a single entity.

No it isn't, because there's a third entity following the "and" which renders the sentence entirely comprehensible.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

the job could be done with a couple of dashes.

When writing with pen and paper I use more dashes than Emily Dickinson...on a computer I have to make do with ellipses.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

The brackets in (ii) are IMV necessary to avoid confusion.

You're probably right, but in my case at least the confusion still remains...

 

[Mrs Magpie]

I see a hyphen has been used by past caring instead of a dash...not long enough, in my opinion.

 

[belboid]

oh god don't get us started on the three types of '-'. I've never been able to work out how they differ (well, except in length, and between a hyphen and a dash)

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Nor have I been able to work out how to make Word give you the particular one you want.

 

[laptop]

I see a hyphen has been used by past caring instead of a dash...not long enough, in my opinion.

Blame that on the committee that picked the characters for the ASCII set.

I think this – and this too — both come out strange on a Mac, don't they?

What do this – and this — do these days?

 

[Col_Buendia]

No it isn't, because there's a third entity following the "and" which renders the sentence entirely comprehensible.

It would only render the sentence comprehensible in retrospect. Making the reader read the sentence twice to make sense of it seems a strange policy. The sense, as you read, is as pc said. The two entities become one, a sense that would then need to be disagreeably revised come the end of the sentence.

I like lots of types of threads: threads about sex (but not about masturbation practices), threads about politics (although not ones where pbman posts), and threads about Cardiff.

Are those commas superfluous?

 

[past caring]

No it isn't, because there's a third entity following the "and" which renders the sentence entirely comprehensible.

Only given prior knowledge that the two are distinct entities.

 

[Loki]

I like lots of types of threads: threads about sex (but not about masturbation practices), threads about politics (although not ones where pbman posts), and threads about Cardiff.

Are those commas superfluous?

I would say not in that case, because you're listing things there and the commas separate the elements in the list.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

I like lots of types of threads: threads about sex (but not about masturbation practices), threads about politics (although not ones where pbman posts), and threads about Cardiff.

Are those commas superfluous?

Yup.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Anyway, I'm off to Broadstairs for the weekend. By the time I return I expect this debate to have moved on to semi-colons, the word "alright" (should it be "all right"?) and the misuse of ellipses... and to have reached a pitch of bitterness and mutual loathing that results in several bannings.

Be seeing you.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

Have a lovely time...

 

[belboid]

Only given prior knowledge that the two are distinct entities.

naah, I'd ahgree with Donna in that instance, the brackets indicate that the first two are distinct enities anyway. Not even the wackiest trot sect sticks the brackets in the middle of their name.

in general tho, I think I'd agree with laptops post - it's a matter for the local style book. And commas just look right to me.

 

[laptop]

oh god don't get us started on the three types of '-'. I've never been able to work out how they differ (well, except in length, and between a hyphen and a dash)

- Hyphen; as in tea-pot and when splitting words at line-ends in justified text

– or — En-rule or Em-rule to typographers: two possible glyphs to represent the "dash" which — as in this here example — is a strictly improper but very, very useful piece of punctuation. Local house style will specify that you use one or the other, and whether there is:

• no space on either side (in Unicode, you'll be wanting a "Zero Width Non-Joiner" here);
• a Thin space either side — one that does not expand with justification; or
• a justifying space either side.

Oh, look: ");"

There are rules about proper use of dashes, but following them will make your text look like a pastiche of some specifically Victorian pedantry — especially if you follow the even more obscure rule about the use of —, the oddest combination known to typography. I even seem to rememebr finding rules on when en-rules and em-rules could both be used — in different contexts in the same text —, but I suspect these were made up as an entry in the Great Pedantry Competition of 1886.

Better to think of a dash as a visual clue for speech rhythms — to be used where the "proper" mark would be either a colon or semicolon — as after "reading" — or parenthetical commas (as just used).

 

[belboid]

I have no idea how to get anything other than the - on this here PC!

I've had veraious arguments with typesetters, who have attempted to explain the differences, and insisted that there were good reasons to use both. The insistence of one that there were to be no spaces at all before or after, mm, at least one such dash, almost cost a beautiful friendship!

 

[past caring]

(Satutory Instrument 1987 No. 1967, Sched. 3)

Transitional Protection

7. - (1) Where the amount applicable to a claimant by way of housing costs under regulation 17(1)(e) or regularion 18 (1)(f) (as the case may be) in the benefit week which includes 1st October 1995 ("the first benefit week") is greater than the amount which, in accordance with paragraphs 6 and 10, is applicable in his case in the next succeeding benefit week ("the second benefit week"), the claimant shall be entitled to have his existing housing costs increased by an amount (referred to in this paragraph as "add back") determined in accordance with the following provisions in this paragraph.

 

[laptop]

Not even the wackiest trot sect sticks the brackets in the middle of their name.

But I did used to get Xmas cards from the "Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist) Balham Reading Group"

* Thread degenerates as predicted *

 

[laptop]

(Satutory Instrument 1987 No. 1967, Sched. 3)

But weren't we discussing punctuation in English?

 

[belboid]

Xmas Cards??!! They're blatantly revisionists then, and don't count

 

[past caring]

But weren't we discussing punctuation in English?

It is in English. Legal English, 'tis true, but English nonetheless. And that highlighted comma is needed.

 

[laptop]

I have no idea how to get anything other than the - on this here PC!

Start | Programs | Accessories | System Tools | Character Map

Then do it again and right-click on the menu entry and select "make shortcut" and drag it onto the desktop...

I've had veraious arguments with typesetters, who have attempted to explain the differences, and insisted that there were good reasons to use both. The insistence of one that there were to be no spaces at all before or after, mm, at least one such dash, almost cost a beautiful friendship!

Which is why, next time, you give them a house style list with the job. Or just give in, because they have the set text and you don't.

 

[laptop]

Xmas Cards??!! They're blatantly revisionists then, and don't count

That's what I thought at the time Maybe there's something in Mao that justifies it?

 

[MikeMcc]

I think that the use of commas and brackets depends on the context of the text that is being written. In a technical or legal document brackets would be used to expand on a point in the text, for instance, to explain an acronym when it is used for the first time. If the flow of the sentence meant that commas were also required, then these could be placed next to a bracket to ensure that the contents of the brackets are placed in the correct portion of the sentence.

 

[nogoodboyo]

It is in English. Legal English, 'tis true, but English nonetheless. And that highlighted comma is needed.

<applauds in agreement>

Note to self: if in doubt, make people read legal documents until they give in

 

[Loki]

Yup.

hmm I'm in two minds about that because as I said, Col was listing things and the comma is a natural separator in a list.