Come the next election, local and General let us left thinkers snuff out New Labour.
- Thread starter Hocus Eye.
- Start date
I think G K Chesterton got there first with that, about a century ago.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
You do make me wonder sometimes.
Spion
I hear ya
LOLNew Anarchism has a nice ring to it. You could all wear suits.
And get yer bloody hair cut
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
Thing is, as kyser pointed out, you're not just struggling against misperceptions of anarchism - a lot of anarchists I've had this conversation with were under this misconception. You're struggling against the dictionary definition:
an·ar·chy (
n. pl. an·ar·chies 1. Absence of any form of political authority.
2. Political disorder and confusion.
3. Absence of any cohesive principle, such as a common standard or purpose.
And I really don't think it's worth fighting the centuries-old dictionary definition. Up to you of course. I'm not an anarchist so I don't care
Spion
I hear ya
The whole desperate search for names that might work or the unholy scramble to ditch old ones is a symptom of the class struggle being at a low ebb in the UK. I really don't think people would give that much of a shit about the labels communism or anarchism if the existing system was in crisis
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
To be honest I don't think you should just scrap the name. You should scrap the idea of a package of political ideals that would need a name, and focus instead on particular principles you find important. I've suspected for a while now that the demise of the left in this country is partly because they haven't been able to give up this compulsion to bundle and label their beliefs, and people don't want that any more - for some very good and sound reasons. They don't want grand globe-spanning political philosophies any more, and the sooner the left can give them up the sooner they can start to make an impact on politics again.
imo
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Oh I agree - someone once gave me a link to this great article called 'Alienation - The Last Stage of Militancy' or something similar, and one part of it points out that claiming ownership of the name of a movement is a key part in this; to begin with the basic notion of brand ownership, which is fundamentally what's being claimed, should be anti-thetical to those who claim to be against private property. Along with this, as I pointed out on the 'real left' thread, as soon as you create a name, you create a totem and set of immovable meanings behind it - which is when all the sectarian rubbish starts, because every man and their dog has 'politics'.
Do you not think that if there were a crisis that there would be even more crowing about the who was correct in calling themselves whatever they want to call themselves BEFORE the crisis - 'We had first dibs there!!!' (and can anyone honestly say that such childishness wouldn't happen?
)
:0 I actually did this about a year after starting posting on Urban...well at least wrote out a basic campaign strategy which covered off SWOT, perception problem and all the rest of it...didn't 'rebrand' tho - I had this crazy idea that branding in itself is a form of ownership, and that in order for this to work it needed to hook people not by a name but by to encourage them to start asking the Big Questions about society...I actually took as my model the way less proselytising and more liberal religions have developed and grown in the US...it was based around using a very simple Q&A format on stuff like postcards, Tube panels etc which appealed to people's sense of fairness and general background 'Us & Them' grumble that seems to simmer but never really boils in this country (as opposed to say France)...
Do you not think that if there were a crisis that there would be even more crowing about the who was correct in calling themselves whatever they want to call themselves BEFORE the crisis - 'We had first dibs there!!!' (and can anyone honestly say that such childishness wouldn't happen?
):0 I actually did this about a year after starting posting on Urban...well at least wrote out a basic campaign strategy which covered off SWOT, perception problem and all the rest of it...didn't 'rebrand' tho - I had this crazy idea that branding in itself is a form of ownership, and that in order for this to work it needed to hook people not by a name but by to encourage them to start asking the Big Questions about society...I actually took as my model the way less proselytising and more liberal religions have developed and grown in the US...it was based around using a very simple Q&A format on stuff like postcards, Tube panels etc which appealed to people's sense of fairness and general background 'Us & Them' grumble that seems to simmer but never really boils in this country (as opposed to say France)...
Spion
I hear ya
Given the lack of 'globe-spanning political philosophies' in existence in the UK, I would say you've got what you describe, but it doesn't seem to be having any effect, does it?
I'm just not convinced that we're-oh-so-different-now. After 15 years of relative stability and prosperity in a very small part of the world it's no surprise to me that there is political apathy
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
I don't think you're getting what I'm saying. I'm saying that most of the UK population has given up on grand philosophies, but that most of the radical left has not. This is part of the reason for their irrelevance.
Spion
I hear ya
That depends entirely on the quality of the ideas in circulation. I doubt anything quite so ego-ridden would gain mass appealDo you not think that if there were a crisis that there would be even more crowing about the who was correct in calling themselves whatever they want to call themselves BEFORE the crisis - 'We had first dibs there!!!' (and can anyone honestly say that such childishness wouldn't happen?
We're in a slack period of history in the UK in some senses, there's little in the way of extremes affecting us, and much of what is is exerting a pull to the right. It's no surprise to me that the ideas of the left are stagnant.
Spion
I hear ya
Most of the population is not interested in politics, full stop. I can't see that local or whatever type of campaign you suggest is going to get any further.
And in any case to counterpose the radical left and individual capaigns is a false dichotomy. Those in 'the left' are generally those involved in local issues, and if anything the British left is notoriously shy of speaking about the grander worldviews it claims to stand for
These things come and go. To write off 'grand philosophies' is premature and can only weaken 'our' side
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
Anarchism has a pretty rubbish image....
I watched the film xxx with Vin Diesel the other night. The baddies were self-styled Anarchists, russian ex-army soldiers who had a plot to destroy the world's major cities with Bio-weapons/nerve gas (or something)
Thereby plunging the whole world into Anarchy..... hahahahahaha (evil laugh)
I watched the film xxx with Vin Diesel the other night. The baddies were self-styled Anarchists, russian ex-army soldiers who had a plot to destroy the world's major cities with Bio-weapons/nerve gas (or something)
Thereby plunging the whole world into Anarchy..... hahahahahaha (evil laugh)
Spion
I hear ya
translation: I lack the ability to argue my corner
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
Or: You just wrote a post that so perfectly illustrated exactly the problem I was trying to describe that I realised the futility of further argument in the face of your beliefs.
One of those
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
That was me about 5 years back and i've seen you reference it many times since, but never once with the same spirit or with the same aims as the original article
Spion
I hear ya
It's a bulletin board, it's a place where people discuss things. Just writing off someone's views without engaging or really testing your own seems somehow dishonest or cowardly to me. But, whether you engage is up to you. We're here by choice.Or: You just wrote a post that so perfectly illustrated exactly the problem I was trying to describe that I realised the futility of further argument in the face of your beliefs.
One of those
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
He's right Spion - you're just as wedded to the C19/20 century models of change that require 'party' and a 'grand view' as many others on the left. I could psyche 101 you on your feelings of protection and ownership toward these ideas. You are righ there tho:
True, so you need to find out what motivates people besides this.
True, so you need to find out what motivates people besides this.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
That was me about 5 years back and i've seen you reference it many times since, but never once with the same spirit or with the same aims as the original article
It inspired me in a different way, what can I say.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Spion
I hear ya
It's true. I am wedded to those ideas, broadly speaking, and I'm happy to argue my case as to why, historically speaking, they are still relevant in the long run.
Meanwhile, you and he are just as wedded to your ideas of 'no grand idea' and they look to me like those of people who can't see the forest for the trees, with no historical perspective, and no evidence to back up your case or to point towards successful outcomes for your model.
So, what I think we need to do is find people who aren't under the illusion that we can just run out into the streets with some magical new approach that will appeal to people now, but who see the need to understand how the world works and be prepared to disseminate their ideas more widely when this system shows the apathetic its true colours.
It's no good trying to hitch a ride in a stagnant pool. Wait til history really starts flowing. We'll see no major social change until the next world war, I think
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
You think what I'm saying is ahistorical? My entire opposition to 'grand ideas', to ideology generally, is based on the millenia of misery and suffering the various 'grand ideas' contained in theology and philosophy have wrought on countless billions through history. Centralised ideas are no different to centralised states - they sap creativity and actively work to prevent change that doesn't occur on their terms. Has it never occured that one of the reasons for the success of hierarchy throughout history is precisely because it has no great philosophy behind it, but is an idea that is infinitely mutable - from God Kings directly made in Heaven all the way through to the lie of meritocracy in Capitalism, the conceptual basis of hierarchy has always relied on one very simple idea, that those at the top deserve to be there and it's always backed up by everything, up to and including pseudo-sciences like eugenics, the 'racial' scientists and fuckwad wanker evolutionary sociologists.
Capitalism shares this trait - it's not a grand idea, it's the continaution of something that has been happening in enduring human societies since we started building cities, probably before that when surplus produciton enabled one man to buy another's services to build, crop or fight for him. It's also why you need to fight it with something equally simple, and potentially enduring, but that won't cause the bloodshed that theology and ideology have caused, because if we don't we'll never, ever change the cycle of human history of hierarchy and conflict.
Spion
I hear ya
And yet, your ideas are grand idea in themselves, and one that in not recognising that hierarchies of some sort are natural to societies made up of people, has nothing to say about them, and has no way of consciously controlling them. It's an ahistorically-derived utopia
We need the 'grand idea' that recognises our true condition socially and puts in place ways of ensuring that hierarchies are controlled by the active involvement by the mass of people. Abolition of private property and mass democratic planning of economic life is what I want, and I can't see how that's restrictive and sapping of creativity at all
Anyway, this is fascinating, but I must sell my labour power
We need the 'grand idea' that recognises our true condition socially and puts in place ways of ensuring that hierarchies are controlled by the active involvement by the mass of people. Abolition of private property and mass democratic planning of economic life is what I want, and I can't see how that's restrictive and sapping of creativity at all
Anyway, this is fascinating, but I must sell my labour power
But surely, neo-liberalism is a grand theory which we are now governed by and which most people in the Uk have accepted even if they don't like it or are not really aware of it.The political classes certainly adhere to it.
'They don't want grand globe-spanning political philosophies any more, and the sooner the left can give them up the sooner they can start to make an impact on politics again.'
'They don't want grand globe-spanning political philosophies any more, and the sooner the left can give them up the sooner they can start to make an impact on politics again.'
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Old idea of private ownership of everything re-hashed - not even with new presentation or language! Don't mistake theory for the methodology of a project with a specific aim.
Becuase there is no 'centre'- the concept of a politics of the centre is a fabrication and should not be confused with one nation toryism or consensus politics which belong to a brief period of british political history.
Some might say that the media generate content ' in the public interest ' which the government respond to , on an ad-hoc basis and make or adopt policy accordingly. And the media = corperate interest.
what we are witnessing is the rise of a proto -globalised-commercial-fuedalism
come the end of the century people will be lucky to own there bodies thats what my the dregs in my pint glass are telling me lo it could be a fruit machine induced vision of the future
( Dear cyber rose as you know we own the DNA strand which gives you small feet and seeing as you are on welfare we are going to amputate them and sell them on to a customer in Japan to cover your personal credit debts etc )
DEMOCRACY MY ARSE
Quite easily
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