Come May will Respect make hay while the sun shines?

[TeeJay]

I don't regard the largest socialist vote in England since 1945, winning a parliamentary seat and coming a serious second or third in half a dozen others (none of which the Greens have yet to do), and being in a position to challenge seriously for over 100 council seats, as being an 'ignominious failure'.

The Greens can choose to ignore Respect if they like, but, as I said earlier, it's they who have the most to lose ... it's clear that Respect is not going to disappear in the near future, however much you and some of the other posters might want it.

Shall we look at the actual results then? I'll let everyone guess who is who. Maybe you can use this list to suggest where exactly Respect can offer anything to the benefit of the Green Party? These results don't suggest that Respect threatening to stand in Brighton for example is going to scare anyone - Respect can only get votes in areas with large Muslim populations, and even they they don't always suceed in doing this either. On this showing there is a very limited amount they can offer the Green Party in terms of votes IMO.

Bethnal Green & Bow .................... 35.9
Birmingham Sparkbrook & Small Heath .... 27.5
East Ham ............................... 20.7
West Ham ............................... 19.5
Poplar & Canning Town .................. 17.2
Preston ................................. 6.8
Tottenham ............................... 6.4
Leicester South ......................... 6.4
Birmingham Perry Barr ................... 5.6
Hackney South ........................... 4.5
Slough .................................. 4.4
Sheffield Central ....................... 4.3
Walsall South ........................... 3.2
Stretford & Urmston ..................... 2.5
Luton South ............................. 1.9
Tooting ................................. 1.7
Tyne Bridge ............................. 1.7
Bradford North .......................... 1.4
Bristol East ............................ 1.3
Cambridge ............................... 1.1
Cardiff Central ......................... 1.1
Harwich ................................. 0.9
Plymouth Devonport ...................... 0.8
Neath ................................... 0.7
Hove .................................... 0.6
Dorset South ............................ 0.5

Brighton Pavilion ..... 22.0
Lewisham Deptford ..... 11.1
Hackney North .......... 9.9
Holborn ................ 8.1
Leeds West ............. 7.5
Norwich South .......... 7.4
Islington North ........ 7.1
Brighton, Kemptown ..... 7.0
Dulwich & West Norwood . 6.5
Sheffield Central ...... 6.0
Hove ................... 5.7
Hackney South .......... 5.5
Streatham .............. 5.5
Liverpool Riverside..... 5.5
Bath ................... 5.4
Stroud ................. 5.4
Hampstead .............. 5.3
Ealing & Acton ......... 5.0
Hornsey & Wood Green ... 5.0
Nottingham East ........ 5.0
Bristol South .......... 5.0
Regents Park ........... 4.9
Islington South ........ 4.8
Lewisham West .......... 4.8
Huddersfield ........... 4.7
Leicester West ......... 4.7
Ealing Southall ........ 4.6
Leyton & Wanstead ...... 4.6
Tottenham .............. 4.6
Vauxhall ............... 4.6
City of York ........... 4.5
Leominster ............. 4.5
Bethnal Green & Bow .... 4.4
Greenwich & Woolwich ... 4.4
Lancaster & Wyre ....... 4.4
Manchester Central ..... 4.4
Oxford East ............ 4.3
Manchester Withington .. 4.3
Kensington ............. 4.3
City of Westminster .... 4.2
Battersea .............. 4.2
Tooting ................ 4.1
Camberwell ............. 4.0
Lewisham East .......... 4.0
New Forest West ........ 4.0
Oxford West & Abingdon . 4.0
Hammersmith & Fulham ... 3.9
Wealden ................ 3.9
Hertford & Stortford ... 3.9
Birmingham, Selly Oak .. 3.8
Bristol East ........... 3.8
Sheffield, Heeley ...... 3.8
Bristol West ........... 3.8
Milton Keynes SW ....... 3.7
Brentford & Isleworth ...3.6
Essex North ............ 3.6
Shipley ................ 3.5
Mitcham & Morden ....... 3.5
Newcastle Central ...... 3.5
Richmond (Yorks) ....... 3.5
North Devon ............ 3.5
Chesham and Amersham ... 3.5
Reading East ........... 3.5
Southampton Test ....... 3.5
Castle Point ........... 3.5
Wansbeck ............... 3.4
Rochford & Southend East 3.4
Exeter ................. 3.4
St Ives ................ 3.4
Torridge and W. Devon .. 3.4
Ashford ................ 3.4
Sheffield, Hallam ...... 3.3
Leicester South ........ 3.3
Tewkesbury ............. 3.3
Henley ................. 3.3
Suffolk Coastal ........ 3.3
Canterbury ............. 3.2
Brent South ............ 3.2
Bromley & Chislehurst .. 3.2
Wimbledon .............. 3.2
Bradford West .......... 3.1
Suffolk Central ........ 3.1
Witney ................. 3.1
Southwark North ........ 3.0
Wakefield .............. 3.0
Rushcliffe ............. 3.0
Birmingham Edgbaston ... 3.0
Rotherham .............. 3.0
Watford ................ 3.0
Bury St Edmunds ........ 3.0
West Ham ............... 2.9
Hull North ............. 2.9
Brent East ............. 2.9
Ealing North ........... 2.9
Calder Valley .......... 2.9
Bridgwater ............. 2.9
Salisbury .............. 2.9
Gosport ................ 2.9
Cambridge .............. 2.9
South Cambridgeshire ... 2.9
Warwick and Leamington . 2.8
Chipping Barnet ........ 2.8
Croydon North .......... 2.8
Twickenham ............. 2.8
Banbury ................ 2.8
Putney ................. 2.7
Richmond Park .......... 2.7
Stalybridge & Hyde ..... 2.7
Runnymede & Weybridge .. 2.7
Norwich North .......... 2.7
Colne Valley ........... 2.6
Gower .................. 2.6
Edmonton ............... 2.6
Enfield Southgate ...... 2.6
Finchley & Golders Green 2.6
Hayes & Harlington ..... 2.6
Scarborough and Whitby . 2.6
Wantage ................ 2.6
Bedfordshire Mid ....... 2.6
Poplar & Canning Town .. 2.5
Leeds North West ....... 2.5
Woodspring ............. 2.5
Windsor ................ 2.5
Braintree .............. 2.5
Ceredigion ............. 2.4
Tiverton and Honiton ... 2.4
Hastings and Rye ....... 2.4
Havant ................. 2.4
Waveney ................ 2.4
Newcastle-under-Lyme ... 2.3
Shrewsbury and Atcham .. 2.3
Stratford-on-Avon ...... 2.3
West Worcestershire .... 2.3
Lewes .................. 2.3
Feltam & Heston ........ 2.2
Ruislip Northwood ...... 2.2
Birmingham, Sparkbrook . 2.2
Hereford ............... 2.2
Swansea West ........... 2.2
South Swindon .......... 2.2
Milton Keynes NE ....... 2.2
Reading West ........... 2.2
Thanet South ........... 2.2
Barking ................ 2.1
Carshalton & Wallington. 2.1
Croydon Central ........ 2.1
Uxbridge ............... 2.1
Cheltenham ............. 2.1
Forest of Dean ......... 2.1
North Dorset ........... 2.1
Great Grimsby .......... 2.0
Worcester .............. 2.0
Cardiff South .......... 2.0
Eastbourne ............. 2.0
Slough ................. 2.0
Luton South ............ 2.0
Blackburn .............. 1.9
Basingstoke ............ 1.9
Bradford South ......... 1.9
Hendon ................. 1.8
West Dorset ............ 1.8
Broxtowe ............... 1.8
Ludlow ................. 1.8
Rossendale & Darwen .... 1.8
Neath .................. 1.8
Batley and Spen ........ 1.7
Aberavon ............... 1.7
Gloucester ............. 1.7
Upminster .............. 1.6
Northavon .............. 1.6
Guildford .............. 1.6
Bradford North ......... 1.6
Bridgend ............... 1.6
Swansea East ........... 1.6
Conwy .................. 1.5
Dewsbury ............... 1.5
Basildon ............... 1.5
Newport West ........... 1.5
Folkestone and Hythe ... 1.4
Preseli Pembrokeshire .. 1.3
Rochdale ............... 1.1
Boston and Skegness .... 1.0
Hartlepool ............. 0.8

 

[tbaldwin]

Crikey what a load of losers!

 

[TeeJay]

So let's look at where the Green party and Respect actually ran against each other:

This rules out East Ham, Preston, Birmingham Perry Barr, Walsall South, Stretford & Urmston, Tyne Bridge, Cardiff Central, Harwich, Plymouth Devonport and Dorset South where the Green Party did not stand.

There were 7 seats where Respect got more than the Greens:

Bethnal Green & Bow:
Respect: 35.9%
Green: 4.4%

Birmingham Sparkbrook & Small Heath:
Respect: 27.5%
Green: 2.2%

West Ham:
Respect 19.5%
Green: 2.9%

Poplar & Canning Town:
Respect: 17.2%
Green: 2.5%

Tottenham:
Respect 6.4%
Green: 4.6%

Leicester South:
Respect: 6.4%
Green 3.3%

Slough:
Respect: 4.4%
Green: 2.0%

There were 9 seats where the Green Party got more than Respect:

Hackney South:
Green: 5.5%
Respect: 4.5%

Sheffield Central:
Green: 6.0%
Respect: 4.3%

Luton South:
Green: 2.0%
Respect: 1.9%

Tooting
Green: 4.1%
Respect: 1.7%

Bradford North:
Green: 1.6%
Respect: 1.4%

Bristol East:
Green: 3.8%
Respect: 1.3%

Cambridge:
Green: 2.9%
Respect: 1.1%

Neath:
Green: 1.8%
Respect: 0.7%

Hove:
Green: 5.7%
Respect: 0.6%

Is the proposal that these two sets of seats are simply “traded”? Would this extend to council, london and euro elections as well?

 

[Fisher_Gate]

So let's look at where the Green party and Respect actually ran against each other:
...

It's arguable, but I would include Blackburn as well. Craig Murray stood as an independent, the Greens opposed him. Murray was backed by Respect and Respect members canvassed and supported him, building on the Socialist Alliance campaign in 2001 (when there was no Green candidate). I've just left a Stop the War meeting with over 200 people to oppose the visit of Condaleeza Rice in Blackburn that Murray spoke at with George Galloway and its pretty obvious that he is closest to Respect and the only party likely to provide serious forces on the ground to oppose Labour in Blackburn is Respect. There was no noticeable Green Party presence at the meeting despite their ostensible support for the Stop the War Coalition. Jack Straw had tried to get the meeting banned through his cronies at the council and there was a lot of talk about turfing them out at the next local elections (2008). Its also clear that people clearly meant that Respect were the only party that could turf Labour out.

Include that one and it's:
Blackburn:
Independent/Respect 5.0
Green 1.9

When you look at the eight seats Respect outpolled the Greens, it was generally by quite a significant margin, whereas in the nine seats where the Greens outpolled Resect, it was much nearer, with some where neither party did well.

I'd say its not an open and shut case that the Greens are the stronger party and have nothing to gain by trying to work with Respect. We will have to see after the local elections what happens in the head to heads but it is possible the Greens will fare worse.

 

[Matt S]

>>It's not an open and shut case that the Greens are the stronger party>>

Well, with respect (ho ho) - 2 MEPs, 2 GLA members and 70 councillors, compared to - what - 1 MP and 3 or 4 councillors? Something like 1,400 candidates this year, compared to probably 200ish? Over 200 GE candidates compared to about 10/15?

I appreciate that some of that is down to targetting, but I think the Greens still have a tangibly stronger presence across most of the country than RESPECT. In East London, Birmingham and Preston, thats not true - but across most of the rest of the UK, you guys hardly exist....

Matt

 

[Fisher_Gate]

>>It's not an open and shut case that the Greens are the stronger party>>

Well, with respect (ho ho) - 2 MEPs, 2 GLA members and 70 councillors, compared to - what - 1 MP and 3 or 4 councillors? Something like 1,400 candidates this year, compared to probably 200ish? Over 200 GE candidates compared to about 10/15?

I appreciate that some of that is down to targetting, but I think the Greens still have a tangibly stronger presence across most of the country than RESPECT. In East London, Birmingham and Preston, thats not true - but across most of the rest of the UK, you guys hardly exist....

Matt

I meant after May - that is the topic of the thread. Obviously not at present in terms of council seats.

And London and Birmingham are not exactly small places - to be making breakthroughs in such a short time there, augers well for the next few years. I accept that places like Preston (and Lancaster and Oxford ...) are of less significance). Of course we are very concentrated in certain parts of the country, and I make no apology for that - so is the population.

And its not just about targetting - in the half dozen seats where we did really well in the general election, it is self-evident that we did better than the Greens anywhere in the country ... the fact is that we did really well, historic indeed ...

... and by the way our second most successful parliamentary candidate is not a guy at all ...

 

[Rostock]

And London and Birmingham are not exactly small places - to be making breakthroughs in such a short time there, augers well for the next few years. I accept that places like Preston (and Lancaster and Oxford ...) are of less significance). Of course we are very concentrated in certain parts of the country, and I make no apology for that - so is the population.

This is a very interesting paragraph:

1. Preston is of 'less significance' wtf? Than where? Surely it's not beyond the ken of even the most slow-witted activist to realise that powerful regional bases need not be built in London/ Birmingham.

2. Your last sentence would appear to be an admission that RESPECT targets votes on the basis of etnicity rather than class. If I read you correctly- and it's hard to see how your last sentence could be read any other way- how then is RESPECT different from the BNP?

 

[Matt S]

>>... and by the way our second most successful parliamentary candidate is not a guy at all ..>>

And neither are our two Parliamentarians, so you can probably dismount from that particular high horse...

Matt

 

[Fisher_Gate]

This is a very interesting paragraph:

1. Preston is of 'less significance' wtf? Than where? Surely it's not beyond the ken of even the most slow-witted activist to realise that powerful regional bases need not be built in London/ Birmingham.

2. Your last sentence would appear to be an admission that RESPECT targets votes on the basis of etnicity rather than class. If I read you correctly- and it's hard to see how your last sentence could be read any other way- how then is RESPECT different from the BNP?

Eh? Of course powerful regional bases can be built, but the more they are in major cities, the more 'powerful' they are - this means places like Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester, Newcastle, Sheffield, Nottingham, Leicester, Bristol ... to name a few ... are all more important than Preston, Lancaster or Oxford, which also have two tier local government as well, so the councils are not as powerful. The SP's council positions in Coventry and Stoke are also more significant. Brighton is a special case - it is regionally significant (and a unitary council), largely by being lumped in with Hove, which is quite a distinct place.

I wasn't trying to make an attack, just making a factual point. Resect is concentrating on the two largest conurbations in the country and only putting up comparatively few candidates elsewhere. To be fair the Greens also have some strength in London with an MEP and two GLA members (both of which Respect only narrowly lost out on in 2004), but challenging for control of two local authorities, as Respect is doing, is qualitatively more significant politically.

Matt S was trying to make the point that Respect were nowhere. But the largest concentrations of Green councillors are Brighton, Oxford and Lancaster - which are not the major regional bases I have mentioned (and nor is Preston where Respect has councillors). The Green councillors in places Leeds and Manchester are, long term, of more significance.

If (and I accept it's a big 'if') Respect has success in Birmingham and London this May, I think we can expect to see it challenging in the other major cities in subsequent elections. This is nothing directly to do with ethnicity and everything to do with where the biggest concentrations of working class and dispossessed are, and where a fledgling party can make the biggest impact most quickly. And of course when the timetable for elections come up.

I haven't read the government report on the State of the Cities yet, but I expect some interesting issues to emerge from that in relation to Respect's electoral strategy.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

>>... and by the way our second most successful parliamentary candidate is not a guy at all ..>>

And neither are our two Parliamentarians, so you can probably dismount from that particular high horse...

Matt

Sure ... but language has hidden meanings as I'm sure you appreciate - I'd never call the Green Party 'you guys'. It's just a different personal approach we seem to have.

 

[articul8]

garbage - "you guys" is a generic term. Only a politically correct pedant would object.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

garbage - "you guys" is a generic term. Only a politically correct pedant would object.

I plead guilty as charged ... there are still a lot of people who think that 'Chairman' is an acceptable "generic term" ...

 

[mutley]

garbage - "you guys" is a generic term. Only a politically correct pedant would object.

Internalised oppression if you ask me.. (speaking in a personal capacity..)

 

[JHE]

Bad news for Respec' in Brum

Respec's Kashmiri Muslim chums in the 'People's Justice Party' are disbanding, but they are not joining Respec'. They are joining the Lib Dems instead.

PJP group leader Coun Ali Khan said talks about disbanding the party began when members worked closely with the Lib Dems to expose postal vote fraud in Aston and Bordesley Green.

"We have decided it is time to join mainstream politics. The Liberal Democrat Party provides the most obvious home for our membership. People are very excited about this because they can see that we will now be able to play a bigger role in helping to run Birmingham.​

Birmingham Mail article

 

[Stevil]

Funny but the party Respect most remind me of is the Lib-Dems - especially in Preston.

 

[mutley]

Respec's Kashmiri Muslim chums in the 'People's Justice Party' are disbanding, but they are not joining Respec'. They are joining the Lib Dems instead.

PJP group leader Coun Ali Khan said talks about disbanding the party began when members worked closely with the Lib Dems to expose postal vote fraud in Aston and Bordesley Green.

"We have decided it is time to join mainstream politics. The Liberal Democrat Party provides the most obvious home for our membership. People are very excited about this because they can see that we will now be able to play a bigger role in helping to run Birmingham.​

Birmingham Mail article

It's not that big a deal. We called for a vote for them, and they us, in 2004, but there was no relationship last year in the GE. Raghib Ahsan, one of our candidates, is a former PJP candidate but now fully paid up to Respect.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

It's not that big a deal.

One to file under "they would say that, wouldn't they". Respect were wooing this bunch of communalist careerists and if you'd happened to come up with a better offer than the Lib Dems bunch your androids would even now be telling us about how progressive they are. That's one of the many problems with trying to win people over without arguing for socialist politics - the left will always be outbid by the mainstream parties.

 

[nwnm]

Ah... thats why your lot left the labour party then still got that 'Enabling Act' stuffed in yer back pocket 'ave yer?

 

[Macullam]

It's not that big a deal. We called for a vote for them, and they us, in 2004, but there was no relationship last year in the GE. Raghib Ahsan, one of our candidates, is a former PJP candidate but now fully paid up to Respect.

apparently the PJP atcked the lib dems at the euro elections for its support for gay rights

 

[Fisher_Gate]

apparently the PJP atcked the lib dems at the euro elections for its support for gay rights

No - this is an 'urban myth'. An unauthorised leaflet put out in the name of the PJP was withdrawn by the leadership of the PJP who refused to countenance and endorse this comment. A few people claim to have received copies of this leaflet at a meeting, but there is no evidence that it was widely circulated. This was an organisation in transition - that the leadership withdrew such a leaflet is evidence that they were moving in a positive direction. It is now two years since this example was first cited - any chance of moving on to discuss what the PJP are doing now? It is disappointing they are joining the Lib Dems but I expect some will join Respect as an alternative.

 

[JHE]

This is an organisation in transition from a communalist to a socialist basis...

Via the Lib Dems?

 

[Fisher_Gate]

One to file under "they would say that, wouldn't they". Respect were wooing this bunch of communalist careerists and if you'd happened to come up with a better offer than the Lib Dems bunch your androids would even now be telling us about how progressive they are. That's one of the many problems with trying to win people over without arguing for socialist politics - the left will always be outbid by the mainstream parties.

Reminds me of all those interviews in Militant in the 1980s ... 'I voted for Maggie Thatcher in 1979 but now I've seen the light and joined the true socialists .... '

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Via the Lib Dems?

Obviously not. But's its not unknown for left wingers to join the Lib Dems - just misguided.

[PS Sorry I edited the post 1 minute later to make it clearer I disapproved of them joining the Lib Dems.]

 

[JHE]

Obviously not. But's its not unknown for left wingers to join the Lib Dems - just misguided.

[PS Sorry I edited the post 1 minute later to make it clearer I disapproved of them joining the Lib Dems.]

Do you have any reason, other than wishful thinking, to see the PJP as left-wing?

 

[Fisher_Gate]

It's not that big a deal. We called for a vote for them, and they us, in 2004, but there was no relationship last year in the GE. Raghib Ahsan, one of our candidates, is a former PJP candidate but now fully paid up to Respect.

Ahsan was not just a candidate but was the secretary. He is one of the better elements in the PJP who has decided his future lies with Respect. Unfortunately he was obviously unable to convince some of his colleagues.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Do you have any reason to see the PJP as left-wing?

Some members obviously were - Ahsan's credentials, for example, as a left winger (and trade unionist) are strong. Any study of Malcolm X's writings will reveal that there is no automatic destination for those breaking from the 'Nation of Islam' style of politics.

 

[JHE]

400:1

Some members obviously were - Ahsan's credentials, for example, as a left winger (and trade unionist) are strong.

I don't know anything about Ahsan - and am fairly willing to take your word for it.

On the other hand, 400 PJPers are joining the Lib Dems (according to the Brum Mail).

 

[Fisher_Gate]

I don't know anything about Ahsan - and am fairly willing to take your word for it.

On the other hand, 400 PJPers are joining the Lib Dems (according to the Brum Mail).

Ahsan was a former Socialist Unity candidate in the 1970s, labour councillor and TGWU convenor at Rover's Solihull plant. Believe me, he was undeniably on the left.

The two PJP councillors have said that 400 are joining the LibDems. How many do so remains to be seen.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Funny but the party Respect most remind me of is the Lib-Dems - especially in Preston.

Given that you are an anarchist who sees no fundamental difference between any party that contests elections - from BNP and Tories, to LibDems, Labour, Respect, IWCA or Socialist Party, they are all the same to you - this hardly amounts to a devastating critique

The fact that the LibDems advocate privatisation of everything from the Post Office to Public Libraries, and that Respect supports public ownership is presumably irrelevant to a man of your principles ...

 

[mutley]

I doubt 400 PJPers will join the lib-dems. There may be a load at their big bash to celebrate this political marriage, but that's cos there's a free curry.

The PJP were pulled to the left in the wake of the big anti-war upsurge, but unfortunately the siren song of the bigger parties has pulled them in. And Fisher-gate is right about the leaflet, it was circulated at a PJP public meeting, then pulled at Respect's insistence. (And I have a copy). I'd say that that was a positive effect of Respects influence. We've had no dealings with them since 2004, and around the 2005 campaign it was clear that most of them weren't backing Respect.

Nigels argument that it's the kind of politics argued that's the problem is bollocks, there are plenty of ex-trots who've been pulled by the establishment. Look at Hatton ffs.