Combating the BNP in local elections.

[liberty123]

Well if it were from a BNP supporter - you mean they made it up?- wouldn't that make the point even more strongly that threats of violence and attempts to intimidate them only play into their hands?

 

[becky p]

Well if it were from a BNP supporter - you mean they made it up?- wouldn't that make the point even more strongly that threats of violence and attempts to intimidate them only play into their hands?

So people shouldnt fight them it will only encourage them?
People probably argued the same after kristalnicht. Do you think they were right?

 

[The Black Hand]

Searchlight have very intellligent people who ahve done their socio-political research, if they thought that was the best way to defeat the BNP then surely they would be carrying links to militant anti-fascist groups like they always have done in the past. The fact is that they're busting a gut to portray fascists as thugs and anti-democrats and any physical anti-fascism today would only scupper this.

Fuck Searchlight - GO read 'Searchlight for beginners', a google search will find you it...

 

[The Black Hand]

Well if it were from a BNP supporter - you mean they made it up?- wouldn't that make the point even more strongly that threats of violence and attempts to intimidate them only play into their hands?

You are on a negative sceptical spiral (get off it quick)... there is NO pure and good way to fight fascism, the point is to practice over and over again, thinking about the effects of what you are doing in the context of your aims and the aims for the specific action(s) you are helping to carry out...

 

[butchersapron]

Fuck Searchlight - GO read 'Searchlight for beginners', a google search will find you it...

Weren't you attacking people for criticising Searchlight last month and advising people to work in friends of searchlight linked groups if they could? What happened - did you finally read what you're now recommending to others?

 

[The Black Hand]

Weren't you attacking people for criticising Searchlight last month and advising people to work in friends of searchlight linked groups if they could? What happened - did you finally read what you're now recommending to others?

That is not what I was saying - go read it again then come back.

 

[butchersapron]

That is not what I was saying - go read it again then come back.

Ok, i will. Back now - the posts below seem to contradict you rather forceful dismisal of Searchlight in the post above and included as the first post below - so i ask again, what's made you change your mind?

That said, i don't want to derail what looks like an interesting thread with this, so unless you think there's some political point to be made abour how/why/what made you change your mind and any potential importance this has for anti-fascist activity i'd be happy to leave this as it stands.

Fuck Searchlight - GO read 'Searchlight for beginners', a google search will find you it...

It's all very well to bluster about how bad Searchlight is, but this could end up as a counterproductive strategy that actually forces those more on the margins of these groups (not working with Searchlight themselves) more into the arms of Searchlight... because it is easy to slag off those 'leftist/anarchist headbangers who critisise everything'.

That's a fair reply, but on what basis are the Searchlight narks? That they give information about fascists to Searchlight? That they link to them? Neither of these qualify them as dodgy... There are serious problems regarding those genuine people out there in coming to independent anti fascist opinions, a la Antifa, O'Hara, or others. If they are going to be classified as 'the enemy' by them...

What I mean by this is that everybody in and around all these groups thrown up e.g. RVAR, and others, is that they all can't be into Searchlight in advance. They won't be loyal to them organisationally, and so slagging off everybody who is in these groups where one,a couple, a few, do the work with Searchlight is mistaken IMHO

Perhaps 'the people on the ground' fed that sort of information into Searchlight, and hence you get the story. Whilst I agree that some information from Searchilight is dubious, I can't agree, without evidence, that all information they spread is wrong headed. Until the ultra left can reach beyond (even if it is not deliberate) damning so many others by association I do not think they will get far.

 

[liberty123]

So people shouldnt fight them it will only encourage them?
People probably argued the same after kristalnicht. Do you think they were right?

Well the trouble is alot of what goes down well on here as fighting fascism wouldn't be acceptable to the general populace. Don't forget you're looking at a sky poll that found eighty percent of people support the BNP's right of existence.

The other thing of course is that people see more threat from religious extremists, the left can talk about the BNP being nazis and removing people's rights etc, people are more concerned with what's being said in the local mosque. Are you as enthusiastic to combat religious extremists as what you the BNP?

The Daily Express carried a derogatory article warning of the rise of the BNP a couple of days ago and then the very next day carried a news article saying muslim women will now be allowed to wear veils in court even when they are defendents and the CRE saying firms ought to be allowed to advertize for asian only staff. Go figure the connection.

There's obviously some seriously grounded issues in Britain today which white people are extremely concerned about. What is the left's repsonse. Just to put in the windows of the local BNP candidate?

 

[JimPage]

Well the trouble is alot of what goes down well on here as fighting fascism wouldn't be acceptable to the general populace. Don't forget you're looking at a sky poll that found eighty percent of people support the BNP's right of existence.
.

Agreed, but the as the bnp are fascists/nazis who do not believe in democracy, they do not have a right to expect democracy back. I really don`t care if 80% of people are stupid enough to allow the BNP to exist. i dont care if militant antifascism gets a bad press.

What is important is that the BNP are stopped from organising.

One prediction- however well they do on May 3rd- this is the beginning of the end for them. I think the extent of their provocation in standing for election this widely will meet a backlash the fascists will be unable to handle

 

[treelover]

in the case of the far left, no....

The other thing of course is that people see more threat from religious extremists, the left can talk about the BNP being nazis and removing people's rights etc, people are more concerned with what's being said in the local mosque. Are you as enthusiastic to combat religious extremists as what you the BNP?

 

[The Black Hand]

Attica = Reasonable man...

Ok, i will. Back now - the posts below seem to contradict you rather forceful dismisal of Searchlight in the post above and included as the first post below - so i ask again, what's made you change your mind?

That said, i don't want to derail what looks like an interesting thread with this, so unless you think there's some political point to be made abour how/why/what made you change your mind and any potential importance this has for anti-fascist activity i'd be happy to leave this as it stands.

I haven't changed my mind - Searchlight cannot be trusted politically, they print truth, semi truth, partial truth, partial lies, semi lies, outright lies. Unfortunately because of their position as an 'Institution of the Left' people who come across Searchlight (or pointed in that direction by other lefties) and know nothing about them think they are alright.

In this situation I am arguing for CAUTION when dealing with these sorts of people; listen to the particularities of their subjectivity, and argue sensibly with facts e.g. some of the lies Searchlight prints. DO NOT appear absolutist in dismissal of them though, that can come later when people start to trust what you are saying and in the context when it can enter into discussions naturally. Do not impose this 'out of thin air' otherwise you will look like a Lefty anarcho headbanger.

 

[butchersapron]

One prediction- however well they do on May 3rd- this is the beginning of the end for them. I think the extent of their provocation in standing for election this widely will meet a backlash the fascists will be unable to handle

Who do you see this backlash as coming from Jim and what form do you think it will take?

 

[butchersapron]

I haven't changed my mind - Searchlight cannot be trusted politically, they print truth, semi truth, partial truth, partial lies, semi lies, outright lies. Unfortunately because of their position as an 'Institution of the Left' people who come across Searchlight (or pointed in that direction by other lefties) and know nothing about them think they are alright.

In this situation I am arguing for CAUTION when dealing with these sorts of people; listen to the particularities of their subjectivity, and argue sensibly with facts e.g. some of the lies Searchlight prints. DO NOT appear absolutist in dismissal of them though, that can come later when people start to trust what you are saying and in the context when it can enter into discussions naturally. Do not impose this 'out of thin air' otherwise you will look like a Lefty anarcho headbanger.

That sounds entirely reasonable to me, but it does somewhat jar with your post that brought me into this thread "Fuck Searchlight - GO read 'Searchlight for beginners', a google search will find you it...". No worries though. Sort of Vote Searchlight but without any illusions?

 

[The Black Hand]

That sounds entirely reasonable to me, but it does somewhat jar with your post that brought me into this thread "Fuck Searchlight - GO read 'Searchlight for beginners', a google search will find you it...". No worries though. Sort of Vote Searchlight but without any illusions?

Yes I agree it does, my post came about coz I woz aggravated by Liberty123s' unconditional support of the Searchlight agenda. Also a public bulletin board such as this tends to be for people who are politically on a loop, so you get different agendas, and so I was saying to that person that there is something more to it than a simplistic 'Vote Searchlight'. On the streets/face to face, my approach would have been more sensitive...

 

[liberty123]

Well what does anarchism stand for? is there no room for anti-fascism that doen't want a Quentin tarentino glorification of violence based on celebrating strength and brutality which "basically was all "Fighting Talk" was. Sometimes you had to remind yourselves how bad the other side was. And that is the function of Searchlight today- to catalogue the wrong doings and thuggery of BNP members, in a way which will deter respectable people from joining the party.

What should Searchlight be doing in your opinion then to prove it's genuine credentials? - telling militant anti-fascists to violently besiege polling stations, while the BNP are inside recieving record votes and getting dozens possibly over a hundred councillors elected???

 

[JimPage]

Who do you see this backlash as coming from Jim and what form do you think it will take?

i think multi- fronted.

defianately cultural, with LMHR , which is IMHO the only part of the SWP linked groups of any use trying to re-create an antifascist counter-culture

secondly political- as it may encourage people to get off their behinds if the BNP do well- and do something politically to oppose them- and not just at election times

thirdly, a much more vigorous physical force side of things, more out of frsutration than anything else

 

[durruti02]

i think multi- fronted.

defianately cultural, with LMHR , which is IMHO the only part of the SWP linked groups of any use trying to re-create an antifascist counter-culture

secondly political- as it may encourage people to get off their behinds if the BNP do well- and do something politically to oppose them- and not just at election times

thirdly, a much more vigorous physical force side of things, more out of frsutration than anything else

this is interesting .. i see no evidence of it .. got any examples .. need a bit of uplifting from the tory/bnp votes!

 

[The Black Hand]

A) Well what does anarchism stand for? is there no room for anti-fascism that doen't want a Quentin tarentino glorification of violence based on celebrating strength and brutality which "basically was all "Fighting Talk" was. Sometimes you had to remind yourselves how bad the other side was. And that is the function of Searchlight today- to catalogue the wrong doings and thuggery of BNP members, in a way which will deter respectable people from joining the party.

B) What should Searchlight be doing in your opinion then to prove it's genuine credentials? - telling militant anti-fascists to violently besiege polling stations, while the BNP are inside recieving record votes and getting dozens possibly over a hundred councillors elected???

A) Actually I am (using current in vogue libertarian language) arguing for an horizontal popular front of anti fascism, which organises beyond traditional boundaries and explicitely involves those targetted by racists and fascists within the programme. It would also (going back to the 19th formation of the British working class) be involved in whatever voluntary, charity, welfare support systems there are for those migrants (secular if possible but including religious ones cos they have the space and some resources). And these official and unoffficial institutions exist all over the country already.

In other words I am arguing for welfare functions to be a vital part in the construction of the 21st century working class, or multitude as Negri as written.

B) Searchlight would have purge its staff, especially Gable....