Colonel H - shot in the back by his own troops?

Discussion in 'UK politics, current affairs and news' started by Hollis, Jun 7, 2007.

  1. Hollis

    Hollis Bloody furious

    A mate of a mate has loose connections with British intelligence, and the mate of the mate reckons this is what happened..

    Has anyone ever heard anything along these lines before??
     
    kingfisher likes this.
  2. phildwyer

    phildwyer Gorau arf arf dysg

    No. What would theır motıve have been?
     
  3. bluestreak

    bluestreak HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica

    shits and giggles? being able to get away with it?

    who is colonel h anyway?
     
  4. jonH

    jonH New Member

    it is true, I've heard second hand accounts too
     
  5. Hollis

    Hollis Bloody furious

    The supposed theory is that the troops saw him leading them on a suicidal charge and thought "fuck that".
     
  6. zoltan

    zoltan Transnistria festishist

    Course he was - This is old hat - he wanted lead an over the top charge against the filthy argie machione gun post with his trusted men -they had other ideas

    all his piss stained life, he wanted to go out ion a blazre of glory
     
  7. Crispy

    Crispy The following psytrance is baṉned: All

    Makes sense to me.
     
  8. jonH

    jonH New Member

    there used to be a portrait of him in the pub opposite Baker Street Tube
     
  9. Fruitloop

    Fruitloop communism will win

    Thumbs up to fragging the superiors.
     
  10. jonH

    jonH New Member

    popular thread
     
  11. phildwyer

    phildwyer Gorau arf arf dysg

    But wouldn't thıs be easy to prove, ıf true?
     
  12. Crispy

    Crispy The following psytrance is baṉned: All

    I guess so. But then it could have been an accident - friendly fire happens.
     
  13. jonH

    jonH New Member

    collateral damage?
     
  14. phildwyer

    phildwyer Gorau arf arf dysg

    Also, how would anyone know about ıt? It's not the sort of thıng the squaddıes would be braggıng about.
     
  15. zoltan

    zoltan Transnistria festishist

    from wkikpedia ( for whatever fuckin value that is - ive edited out the "citiation needed " bollocks to make i easier to read - the whole article begins " An editor has expressed a concern that the tone or style of this article or section may not be appropriate for an encyclopedia)

    "At this juncture of the battle, 2 Para's advance had become stuck. They were being held up at many points by Argentine resistance that contradicted both the SAS and intelligence remarks of "hit them hard and they will fold", the very words that Jones spoke to his men during his orders group. Jones had pushed his tactical HQ, known as TAC 1, well forward of where an officer conducting a battle should be in order to be able to effectively impose his plan and gain a proper perspective on events. It was at this point, for reasons unknown, Jones decided to personally lead an assault on an entrenched machine gun nest at the crest of a low spur. Followed by his bodyguard, Sergeant Norman, his signaller, Sergeant Blackburn and several officers in his TAC 1 party, including Captains Dent and Wood, he charged the Argentine position. Sgt. Norman recalls calling out to Jones to "watch your fucking back", but Norman believes the OC either didn't hear him, or chose to ignore him. In a documentary filmed after the war, Norman believes that Jones chose to ignore him, as that was his style of leadership It must be noted that on many training exercises in the UK, Jones had been declared 'KIA' by the umpires during several mock battles, for precisely the same reasons Jones ran into a small re-entrant (a dip between two hills) and carried on running up to the crest towards the machine gun position. After stopping to reload his submachine gun halfway up the hill, he pushed on, only to be shot in the back by an Argentine gunner, Jose Louis Rios, manning a MAG at the right of the Argentine line, on the opposite spur to the trench Jones was charging Corporal Rios was later fatally wounded in his trench by Corporal Abols firing a 66mm rocket. Jones had been hit in the back and the groin, and despite the efforts of those around him, was dead within the hour. Also killed during this action was the adjutant, Captain Wood, A company's second-in-command Captain Dent and Corporal Hardman. Jones was later to receive the Victoria Cross for his efforts."
     
  16. dylanredefined

    dylanredefined Not a house elf a tiger

    Not really both sides used same calibre rifles and its not like you could do a
    crime scene like csi on a battle field to work out who was where .
    He attacked one postion and got taken out by one he hadn't seen .You can argue not really his job to be doing stuff like that and his plan was flawed ,but,He was brave and didn't ask anyone to do something he wasen't prepared to do and they won .

    Urban myth best not said in front of people who were there imho
     
  17. Groucho

    Groucho Wrapped in plastic

    I'd heard that he had been shot in the back by his own troops, but I've never read anything to back up what I'd heard. it seems to be unverified 'common knowledge'. :)
     
  18. phildwyer

    phildwyer Gorau arf arf dysg

    My sceptıcısm grows...
     
  19. zoltan

    zoltan Transnistria festishist


    Edit!

    Bur seriously, there were bad things done to prisoners out there fillowing incident slike this - very bad things that isnt talked about now - And this aint an urban myth either
     
  20. skunkboy69

    skunkboy69 Reverend of Eternal Light

    I've heard a friendly fire rumour from someone who was there too.
     
  21. Geoff kerr-morg

    Geoff kerr-morg New Member

    I remember an article in Socialist Worker in 1982 written by Eamonn McCann clearly writing this. Eamonn argued that H was wanting his troops to go into a sure death battle and foolishly led the way. Sorry I can't remember the edition number but obviously it was at the time of the Falklands war.
     
  22. dylanredefined

    dylanredefined Not a house elf a tiger

    Was he there ?or is he just repeating stories he heard which he would love to be true?
    There was one incident when an officer went forward to accept a surrender from one trench and was shot from another trench.Wether it was a delibrate ploy or just confusion in the midst of battle never really known .
    after that paras showed a reluctance to trust white flags cant really blame them.
    Have been investigations into the rumours of mercenaries being excuted etc.Nothing really proved.The left will never forgive the victory put thatcher in power for longer even though it ended a regime which really was fascist.
     
    kingfisher likes this.
  23. chymaera

    chymaera Banned Banned

    Yes, from someone who was in the same regiment.
     
  24. chymaera

    chymaera Banned Banned

    That is not strictly accurate. Although 7.62 was used by both sides the majority of British forces were equipped with 5.56.
     
  25. Andy the Don

    Andy the Don Wise men say only fools..

    Both sides used 7.62. The both used the same assualt rifle the FN. The british used the semi-automatic version the SLR, the Argentines used the fully automatic version. British forces only went with NATO standard 5.62 when the SA80 was issued.
     
  26. chymaera

    chymaera Banned Banned


    Are you sure? (I have an account of the Falklands war where it states the Argentine 7.62 rifles were superior to the British 5.56.)
     
  27. Bob_the_lost

    Bob_the_lost Elsewhere

    The Argentine rifles were superior to the British ones, but they were the same calibre, 7.62 (long).
     
  28. Andy the Don

    Andy the Don Wise men say only fools..

    Not a definite source, but from Wikipedia..

    The L1A1 was replaced in the mid 1980s by the 5.56 mm Enfield SA80 L85A1.

    From:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_FAL#United_Kingdom
     
  29. likesfish

    likesfish an angry pretend soldier shooting at seagulls

    they weren't the SLR was a better made version than the argie rifle. some of the para version had folding stock and the ability to fire on automatic not actually that useful when firing a 7.62 nato round it produces too much recoil.
    the h jones shot in the back is an urban myth he was with the HQ element not full of conscripts visted the place where he got killed he was very brave possibly not what commanders should be doing but brave.
    there was a case where an officer was killed going forward to take a surrender after that incident no prisoners were taken for awhile understandably.
     
  30. ViolentPanda

    ViolentPanda Hardly getting over it.

    It would be difficult to tell.

    The Argentinian army, navy and airforce used a mixture of assault rifles chambered for the 5.56mm NATO round and the 7.62x51 NATO round, whereas we (at the time) still used 7.62x51mm NATO exclusively, except for our sub-machine guns which used 9mm pistol ammunition.
    Both sides' light and medium machine guns were 7.62.

    The wound profiles left by the varying calibres of the weapons would differ markedly, but you wouldn't be able to determine with much certainty whether Jones was killed by an Argentine or a British 7.62 round, and only if he had wounds from 5.56mm rounds would you be able to say for certain that he'd been shot with an Argentine rifle.

    That's without getting into the possibility of Jones being shot with a captured rifle or the like.

    I'm not inclined to believe the story though, purely on the basis of having known several Paras, none of whom were anything except glory-mad action-hunters. They're not sensible people, and running toward a heavily-defended trench is the kind of thing that'd give a lot of them the horn.
     
    coley and hipipol like this.

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