Collapse of the USSR, good thing?

[Mallard]

Care to back that up with a link?

There's one above Johnny. You might not like this one but it includes data from The American Historical Review (which is sadly not available on the AHR website)

http://www.stalinsociety.org.uk/lies.html#political prisoners

Scroll down to point 2. There is a table at the bottom.

 

[zoltan]

It also - becasue of the wilful self delusion of many on the old left as to the true nature of Authoritarian Communism - crippled the notion of there being any alternative to capitalsim for a generation.
it was pretty fucking dire since the 1930s did'nt stop people wanking over how wonderful communism was

Its an interesting one this - the Ole Skool left incl. much of the Union movement seemed completely oblivious to much of the reality of Eblok "communism" - the delusion sees incredible now - I remember Tom Robinson moving to East Berlin at one point - for fucks sake !

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

There's one above Johnny. You might not like this one but it includes data from The American Historical Review (which is sadly not available on the AHR website)

http://www.stalinsociety.org.uk/lies.html#political prisoners

Scroll down to point 2. There is a table at the bottom.

Fine, but why are you only including deaths in the gulags?

 

[Mallard]

Fine, but why are you only including deaths in the gulags?

The table includes figures from prisons Johnny (last but one column on the right). The figures on prisons are only between 1939 to 1948 sadly.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

The table includes figures from prisons Johnny (last but one column on the right). The figures on prisons are only between 1939 to 1948 sadly.

Yes, I know. The point is, that Stalin killed lots of people who weren't in gulags.

 

[Mallard]

Yes, I know. The point is, that Stalin killed lots of people who weren't in gulags.

Indeed. Numbers are very unreliable/controversial here. If comparing to say the US, I would argue that deaths around the world need to be taken in to account including Atomic bombs/Vietnam/Korea etc and the 655,000 murdered in Iraq recently.

If we included the slave trade and wars conducted by capitalist countries, the USSR looks much better.

Similarly, we looking at the height of Stalin's rule here, the figures post Stalin must be much lower in terms of numbers imprisoned/killed.

 

[Fruitloop]

There's the question of proxy wars as well.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Indeed. Numbers are very unreliable/controversial here. If comparing to say the US, I would argue that deaths around the world need to be taken in to account including Atomic bombs/Vietnam/Korea etc and the 655,000 murdered in Iraq recently..

The comparison was the per capita number of soviet citizens killed, vs the number of US citizens executed, with the upshot being that the numbers are similar.

The number of non citizens killed elsewhere, by americans or russians, is a different topic.

 

[Mallard]

The comparison was the per capita number of soviet citizens killed, vs the number of US citizens executed, with the upshot being that the numbers are similar.

The number of non citizens killed elsewhere, by americans or russians, is a different topic.

Sadly I can only refer to the figures that are available and I was orginally comparing imprisonment in my earlier post. There are also no figures available on premature/avoidable deaths in the US due to economically rationed medical care or homelessness or being unable to pay heating bills. In moral terms I would include the treatment/murder and imprisonment 'non-citizens' in judgements of the brutality of any government.

 

[Fruitloop]

I don't quite get the internal vs external victims separation. I mean, is killing people more or less bad with varying geography?

 

[Mallard]

I don't quite get the internal vs external victims separation. I mean, is killing people more or less bad with varying geography?

Quite.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Sadly I can only refer to the figures that are available and I was orginally comparing imprisonment in my earlier post. There are also no figures available on premature/avoidable deaths in the US due to economically rationed medical care or homelessness or being unable to pay heating bills. In moral terms I would include the treatment/murder and imprisonment 'non-citizens' in judgements of the brutality of any government.

I think the USSR would still be way ahead in numbers, in all those categories.

 

[Mallard]

I think the USSR would still be way ahead in numbers, in all those categories.

Fair enough, but sadly the figures are not available.