Collapse of the USSR, good thing?

[goldenecitrone]

It was obviously a good thing as it brought world peace and prosperity for all. Thank you Ronnie.

 

[lewislewis]

True - but some of the former soviet-states have ended up under truly awful regimes since independance.

Indeed but these regimes have often been decided on the basis of outside support, rather than being the national aspiration of the post-Soviet states. Russia has propped up all manner of dicatorships in Central Asia for example, and America likewise (by exerting influence with their post-9/11 military bases which Putin allowed them to set up). I was pointing more towards the Baltic example.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

Its only one facet of US imperialism - 'Merica could easily revert to its Isolationist policy of the first half of the 20th century and still exter influcence - in the big scheme of things, a few US bodies on the streets of a foreign county is accepted - the same lot remain in power, the same proles sign up for a 5 years stretch for 3 squares and a regular wage and take the risk of getting killed - Hate to be brutal but although the US may lose people on the ground, its not likely to change policy,. just change the approach

Quote. The Vietnam war changed US foreign policy for all of five years until Regan got into power. I can't see how defeat in Iraq will lead to any substantial changes in policy.

 

[lewislewis]

The number of Soviet citizens imprisoned at the height of Stalin's rule was broadly similar (per head of population) to the US today. Estonian nationalists were responsible for horrendous war crimes during World War II and now recieve pensions for fighting for fascism and mounting pogroms. Pro-Soviet veterans do not.

Broadly similar to the US...then that is unacceptable. The USA is a prison-based society, as the Soviet Union was. Many groups committed horrendous war crimes during the War, but the Estonian nationalists are the same as the Red Army who visited a vast amount of misery upon the people of Poland.
Pensions are the preserve of Russia to provide to her people. Estonia is a self-governing country where the economic conditions have improved drastically since the end of Soviet rule, and where you can now say your opinion without fear of reprisals.
Given the choice, would you rather live in a liberal democracy, or in the Soviet Union?

 

[rocketman]

Given the choice, would you rather live in a liberal democracy, or in the Soviet Union?

Find me a liberal democracy and I'll move there.
I don't consider the UK lives up to that definition.

 

[Andy the Don]

The number of Soviet citizens imprisoned at the height of Stalin's rule was broadly similar (per head of population) to the US today. Estonian nationalists were responsible for horrendous war crimes during World War II and now recieve pensions for fighting for fascism and mounting pogroms. Pro-Soviet veterans do not.

In the early 1950's there were approx 2.5million imprisoned within the Soviet Gulag system. Between 1931 - 1953 between 1.2 & 1.6 million people perished within the Gulag system. as at 30th June 2006 there were 2,245,189 prisoners incarnated in state & federal prisons in America, that's 497 per 100,000 residents (source: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm).

Regarding the Estonians who volunteered for the Waffan SS during WWII. After the Soviet carved up the Baltic states after the Molotov/Ribbentrop pact the Baltic states were consumed by teh Soviet Union & the Estonians language & culture was banned. Leading Estonians were imprisoned or executed. Hence the Estonians were glad to see the arrival of the Nazis, the same with all the Baltic states & Ukraine.

 

[likesfish]

I think you won't find much better than the UK its far from perfect but thats life

 

[Mallard]

Broadly similar to the US...then that is unacceptable. The USA is a prison-based society, as the Soviet Union was. Many groups committed horrendous war crimes during the War, but the Estonian nationalists are the same as the Red Army who visited a vast amount of misery upon the people of Poland.

Really? There was me thinking that Estonian nationalists went on a series of pogroms that even the SS thought were excessive when 'liberated' by Nazi Germany (Masters of Death, The SS Einsatzgruppen and the invention of the Holocaust by Richard Rhodes, Vintage Books is interesting on this). As for prison figures, comparing the USSR at war and under seige/invasion at the time to the domestic US today is clearly unfair.

Pensions are the preserve of Russia to provide to her people. Estonia is a self-governing country where the economic conditions have improved drastically since the end of Soviet rule, and where you can now say your opinion without fear of reprisals.
Given the choice, would you rather live in a liberal democracy, or in the Soviet Union?

Estonians who fought for the USSR is what I was referring to. Estonia does not class them as veterans but does class Estonian fascists as such. Make of that what you will.

What's a 'liberal democracy'? If you mean fascist Estonia or the USSR, I'd go for the latter.

 

[Mallard]

In the early 1950's there were approx 2.5million imprisoned within the Soviet Gulag system. Between 1931 - 1953 between 1.2 & 1.6 million people perished within the Gulag system. as at 30th June 2006 there were 2,245,189 prisoners incarnated in state & federal prisons in America, that's 497 per 100,000 residents (source: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm).

Cheers Andy. Am I being dense or doesn't that support what I was saying? As a pedant, I seriously question those Gulag figures.

Regarding the Estonians who volunteered for the Waffan SS during WWII. After the Soviet carved up the Baltic states after the Molotov/Ribbentrop pact the Baltic states were consumed by teh Soviet Union & the Estonians language & culture was banned. Leading Estonians were imprisoned or executed. Hence the Estonians were glad to see the arrival of the Nazis, the same with all the Baltic states & Ukraine.

Those Estonian fascists deserve plaudits and a pension then? Some might argue that their conduct during the war confirmed Soviet fears as did that of the large number of Ukrainian war criminals.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Its only one facet of US imperialism - 'Merica could easily revert to its Isolationist policy of the first half of the 20th century and still exter influcence - in the big scheme of things, a few US bodies on the streets of a foreign county is accepted - the same lot remain in power, the same proles sign up for a 5 years stretch for 3 squares and a regular wage and take the risk of getting killed - Hate to be brutal but although the US may lose people on the ground, its not likely to change policy,. just change the approach

I agree with you, and surely not surprised, but limiting the ability to be the "policeman of the world" "speak softly carry a big stick" would not make the world a slightly safer place?

 

[TremulousTetra]

Sorry. I don't understand this. Don't mean to be dense, just don't get the subtext of what you're saying, forgive me if I miss the point, but I think the subtext I don't 'get' actually is your argument?

Happy to learn.

hmmmm, a long drawnout conversation discussing the Marxist analysis of class would be of interest to you?

Sorry, I don't mean to suggest your disingenuous, but if you are indeed happy to learn it could take a while.

edited to add;

Well, specifically I guess the Trotskyists would be analysing Stalinism, then?

The funny thing about some left-wing analysts is that if a revolutionary situation develops that doesn't tally with their analysis of how such situations should evolve, they fight against it.

Yet many revolutions historically have evolved independently of any analysis, a population's pragmatic reaction to a situation they share and face.

Sure there was a clear class divide in the USSR, eventually. The state was restricted from growth and surrounded on all sides by nukes fielded by capitalist 'freedom-loving' nations. As such it was forced to invest in military technology, rather than technology to enhance the position of its population. It was an economic war based on military strength.

Quite ironic when you consider that it was the USSR that beat the Nazis. Some thanks they got.

Wow! Quite excellently and succinctly put. now;

The funny thing about some left-wing analysts is that if a revolutionary situation develops that doesn't tally with their analysis of how such situations should evolve, they fight against it.

Yet many revolutions historically have evolved independently of any analysis, a population's pragmatic reaction to a situation they share and face.

Don't think I'm going to disagree with you here, just like it if you could clarify what you mean. Perhaps some examples?

 

[likesfish]

well considering the USSR invaded Estonia and lithunia and stayed for 40 odd years not being particular nice house guest at that no suprise that anything anti soviet/russian is seen as a good thing
if Hitler had been a little less keen on exterminating the undesirables the soviet union would have ceased to exist a lot sooner as hitler would have won

 

[Mallard]

well considering the USSR invaded Estonia and lithunia and stayed for 40 odd years not being particular nice house guest at that no suprise that anything anti soviet/russian is seen as a good thing

The Soviets justified this by those countries records in the war and a wish to spread the revolution. Not entirely honest but preferable to whom they were fighting against.

if Hitler had been a little less keen on exterminating the undesirables the soviet union would have ceased to exist a lot sooner as hitler would have won

Really? What on earth gives you that impression? I'd have thought going for the oilfields earlier and invading the USSR after conquering the UK would have been an easier way to win myself.

Unfortunately for Hitler, the Five Year Plans were more successful than he realised and those T34's kept coming off the production line and driving towards the Oder.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Quote. The Vietnam war changed US foreign policy for all of five years until Regan got into power. I can't see how defeat in Iraq will lead to any substantial changes in policy.

I honestly don't remember, where did the US invade under Ronald Reagan? Grenade wasn't it?

think I would argue the first full-blown invasion unfettered by the Vietnam syndrome for the US was Iraq 1991.

afterthought. Even that is debatable.

 

[likesfish]

fought a proxy war rin Nicaragua got involved in the lebannon etc

 

[Mallard]

I honestly don't remember, where did the US invade under Ronald Reagan? Grenade wasn't it?

think I would argue the first full-blown invasion unfettered by the Vietnam syndrome for the US was Iraq 1991.

afterthought. Even that is debatable.

Grenada. Clint even made a film.

 

[TremulousTetra]

fought a proxy war rin Nicaragua got involved in the lebannon etc

that's right, I remember now, that scared of deploying troops Oliver North and the US government had to sell the drugs, and weapons to Iran, in order to fund the Contras wasn't it?

Kind of only makes my point.

 

[zoltan]

The cold war was fought through proxies from the end of WW2 on -
some - LIke Afghanstan during thje 70-80's involved one Cold war power against armed representaives of the other - some like Angola were using locals as proxies for the main USSR/US conflict - ditto Iran/Iraq war.

Just cos they didnt physically go in didnt mean they werent involved

As to being the world policeman - Rarely was an agenda that didnt directly benefit the US direct;y absent - Even the much talked about Kososvo situation also served to wind up the Pro Serb. Ruskies ( and dont forget the "accidental" bombing of the Chinese Embassy in belgrade )

Where there wasnt an agenda available for US benefit, they didnt get involved - look at Timor/Rwanda etc etc etc .

This isnt a slag off the US tirade as such but an effort to clarify that no one gets involved without good reason.

 

[fanciful]

I think it was a good and a bad thing.
Bad
It caused the collapse of "communism" radically undermining the popular idea that there was an alternative to capitalism
It meant there was a huge boom in the capitalist world economy.
It consolidated the defeats of the 1970s/80s in the US/UK working class.
It lead to a catastrophic decline in living standards across the former Stalinist states.
It enabled the USA to reestablish a relative hegemony over the world.
It lead to the collapse of real national liberation struggles.
Good
Stalinism was a dead hand on the workers movement that at times physically liquidated the left.
Had a terrible influence on how socialists conducted themselves - see the shocking practice of the left today.
Meant that it could not longer discredit the idea of genunine socialism and communism.
Opened up the way for a proper reevaluation by the left of where they had gone wrong.

What will happen?
Still early days but I'm optimistic ultimately.

 

[Rentonite]

And the reason the chaos happened was because Western interests didn't step in to shore up the country immediately when the chance was there. Capitalism demands chaos, essentially, they got better deals by waiting several years for the existing system to fall apart. They make more money that way.

Essentially, the very interests spawned by our so-called democracy - the capitalist interests - are anti-democratic - they want free trade and access to a state's resources, but don't give a flying fuck about the morality of the governments they deal with.

Just consider the fate of the Ngomi tribes.

I disagree, You forget that everyone was waiting to see if the changes in the USSR where going to be permanant.
You cant expect anyone to jump in to a new country with investment dollars when the situation was as shakey as it was those first few years.
Now that we can say that communism is truly dead and cast on the ash heap of history it is easy to look back and critisize.
Here in the states we call that monday morning quarterbacking.
Young people dont have the memorys of the sleepless nights waiting and wondering if the sirens would go off for real.
Now that the Soviet Union is dead and gone, to complain that we (the United States) did not do enough for those people is ludacris.
The Soviets/Russians are completly capable of taking care of themselves.
expecting the US to have done something is a weird form of Hero worship.
So many here seem to think that the United States can Do anything, like a God, yet we are not Gods,.... sorry
We are just people.
The United States is not responsible for everyones welfare
Thinking that someone else is responsible for you is dependant thinking.

Mmm kayy? (sounding like Mr Mackey)

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I think the only counterweight to US imperialism (pre-and-post colapse) will be political islam - something I do not relish in any way, shape or form.

What about China and a strong EU?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

The number of Soviet citizens imprisoned at the height of Stalin's rule was broadly similar (per head of population) to the US today. .

Care to back that up with a link?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

. The USA is a prison-based society,

What is a 'prison based society'?

 

[zoltan]

So many here seem to think that the United States can Do anything, like a God, yet we are not Gods,.... sorry
We are just people.
The United States is not responsible for everyones welfare
Thinking that someone else is responsible for you is dependant thinking.QUOTE]

I dont think anyone on here believes that the US is responsible for other peoples welfare - we're not that Niaive!

taking responsibility for its actions and acceptance of consequences may be a better way to look at this

 

[poster342002]

What about China and a strong EU?

China may be an economic counterwieght, I'll grant you.

The EU is currently being undermined by the more demented rightwing leaderships of some of the newer states who, having beeen a sattellite of the USSR for so long, now seem hellbent in turning their countries into satellites of the USA.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

In the early 1950's there were approx 2.5million imprisoned within the Soviet Gulag system. Between 1931 - 1953 between 1.2 & 1.6 million people perished within the Gulag system. as at 30th June 2006 there were 2,245,189 prisoners incarnated in state & federal prisons in America, that's 497 per 100,000 residents (source: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm).

Regarding the Estonians who volunteered for the Waffan SS during WWII. After the Soviet carved up the Baltic states after the Molotov/Ribbentrop pact the Baltic states were consumed by teh Soviet Union & the Estonians language & culture was banned. Leading Estonians were imprisoned or executed. Hence the Estonians were glad to see the arrival of the Nazis, the same with all the Baltic states & Ukraine.

I think your numbers are a little bit off. If you want to make a comparison, compare the USSR during the Purge of 1937-8.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

China may be an economic counterwieght, I'll grant you.

The EU is currently being undermined by the more demented rightwing leaderships of some of the newer states who, having beeen a sattellite of the USSR for so long, now seem hellbent in turning their countries into satellites of the USA.

These things take time to develop. What you're talking about are the politics of the past couple of years.

 

[likesfish]

I think it was a good and a bad thing.
Bad
It caused the collapse of "communism" radically undermining the popular idea that there was an alternative to capitalism
Good
Stalinism was a dead hand on the workers movement that at times physically liquidated the left.
Had a terrible influence on how socialists conducted themselves - see the shocking practice of the left today.
Meant that it could not longer discredit the idea of genunine socialism and communism.
Opened up the way for a proper reevaluation by the left of where they had gone wrong.
it had failed to become a real workers movement before ww2 imvho and was a lot worse at the state capitalist game than capitalists. for a real kicking as a poor person you need to live in a peoples democratic republic
OK uk plc you get mcds and big brother on tv and a playstation bread and circuses
Soviet union you got bread if you queued long enough and big brother for real
not quite as much fun

 

[Kaka Tim]

IT was great that ordionary people took power into their own hands and brought the corrupt and rotten regimes of eastern europe crashing down - and with limited bloodshed for such a momentous poitical upheaval. The overthrow of that murderous fucker Ceaucescu was especially inspiring and iconic.

There were however, two major negative effects -

it allowed the western free marekteers to foist their socaily destrucitve models on these people via their naive and/or greedy new rulers (who were often the same people whod been doing very well out of the old system). The result was large scale social welfare provision was junked over night leaving many people far worse off, uneomplyment rocketed and prices for basic necsisities went through the roof. Its also allowed a hanfdful gangsteresque carpet baggers to get obscenely wealthy very quickly of the backs of the courage of the ordinary people who'd faced down the likes of the Stasi and the cops.
Little did they know they were getting shot, beaten and tear gassed so that Chelsea could finally lift the premier league trophy.

It also - becasue of the wilful self delusion of many on the old left as to the true nature of Authoritarian Communism - crippled the notion of there being any alternative to capitalsim for a generation.

(I remember my marxist socialiolgy lecturer at the time claiming that it was the middle classes of eastern europe on the streets demanding a more unequal society. It made me realise that he'd be exaclty the sort of cunt to dobb them into the secret police as well. )

 

[likesfish]

It also - becasue of the wilful self delusion of many on the old left as to the true nature of Authoritarian Communism - crippled the notion of there being any alternative to capitalsim for a generation.
it was pretty fucking dire since the 1930s did'nt stop people wanking over how wonderful communism was