Cocaine = Hardcore Global Capitalism

[Blagsta]

This is nonsense. What does capitalism have to do with the cocaine market?

It's outlawed - i.e., there's no free market at all, this is not capitalism, more the action of a central command-and-control government.

When a communist government outlaws something, and a black market forms for it instead, is that capitalism?

Maybe there's an argument that cocaine consumption is unethical, but I don't possibly see how it can blame capitalism, sorry.

The drugs trade is an excellent example of a free market.

 

[Jazzz]

The drugs trade is an excellent example of a free market.

eh? It couldn't be less 'free'.

You can be banged up in jail for selling it at ANY price at all!

 

[Blagsta]

eh? It couldn't be less 'free'.

You can be banged up in jail for selling it at ANY price at all!

It's a free market, in that it has no controls on it. Yes, its illegal, but that is the only control on it. There are no taxes, no quality controls, no laws about cartels and monopolies etc

 

[Jazzz]

It's a free market, in that it has no controls on it. Yes, its illegal, but that is the only control on it.

Tony Blair is an honest man. Why yes, he can lie, but only when he opens his mouth!

 

[Blagsta]

*baffled*

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

eh? It couldn't be less 'free'.

You can be banged up in jail for selling it at ANY price at all!

Not free as in free vs incarcerated, but in the idea of 'free market' vs 'managed economy'.

The drug business is one of the purest examples of unrestrained capitalism.

 

[Dubversion]

Tony Blair is an honest man. Why yes, he can lie, but only when he opens his mouth!

what possible relation does that statement have to blagsta's?

 

[TAE]

The drug business is one of the purest examples of unrestrained capitalism.

... and also perhaps the biggest example of globalisation circumventing/ignoring local laws.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

... and also perhaps the biggest example of globalisation circumventing/ignoring local laws.

The drug use predates the laws.

 

[Jazzz]

*baffled*

It makes as much sense to me as your comment! Enforcement of blanket illegality is the most draconian control a government can impose on all aspects of a market. In the case of cocaine this control certainly has a very significant impact on price and product quality, even if it may not be effective at reducing availability.

As I mentioned earlier JC - black markets (which this is, not 'free') are typical of communist countries, not capitalist ones. They are a product of state control, not libertarianism. This is not capitalism!

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

As I mentioned earlier JC - black markets (which this is, not 'free') are typical of communist countries, not capitalist ones. This is not capitalism!

You don't think there are black markets in capitalist countries? The drug business is one, as is the sale of stolen goods of all description, or the so called grey market of falsely labelled goods.

 

[Jazzz]

You don't think there are black markets in capitalist countries? The drug business is one, as is the sale of stolen goods of all description, or the so called grey market of falsely labelled goods.

yes, black markets, not free markets. The two are completely different.

It would make no difference to the drugs economy if prohibition was carried out by a capitalist or communist authority - the result is the same.

 

[Blagsta]

It makes as much sense to me as your comment! Enforcement of blanket illegality is the most draconian control a government can impose on all aspects of a market. In the case of cocaine this control certainly has a very significant impact on price and product quality, even if it may not be effective at reducing availability.

You're ignoring the second part of my post. Typical you really, pick and choose what you see.

As I mentioned earlier JC - black markets (which this is, not 'free') are typical of communist countries, not capitalist ones. They are a product of state control, not libertarianism. This is not capitalism!

You don't seem to understand what capitalism is.

 

[Blagsta]

yes, black markets, not free markets. The two are completely different.

The two are very similar. For the reasons mentioned.

It would make no difference to the drugs economy if prohibition was carried out by a capitalist or communist authority - the result is the same.

*baffled*

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

yes, black markets, not free markets. The two are completely different.

It would make no difference to the drugs economy if prohibition was carried out by a capitalist or communist authority - the result is the same.

The term 'black market' describes how the market functions vis a vis the established laws or authority. The term 'free market' describes which economic model the market functions by.

 

[TAE]

The drug use predates the laws.

So does slavery. What kind of point is that ?

 

[Jazzz]

The term 'black market' describes how the market functions vis a vis the established laws or authority. The term 'free market' describes which economic model the market functions by.

Well, in your dictionary.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Well, in your dictionary.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/free market

 

[Jazzz]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/free market

yes did you read it?

One can hardly refer to drugs mafia as 'businesses'; government attempts the greatest control it can, forcing the price as high as possible; and there is nothing to stop monopolies forming in the illegal supply chain (try selling on your street corner, you'll find out)

it may behave with similarities to a 'free' market but you just can't say it is, and it's certainly nothing to do with capitalism, which if anything implies a libertarian ethos. Were cocaine legalised, it would be half the price, twice the quality, and there wouldn't be 'barons' running geographical supply territory.

You could even get fairtrade, organic coke!

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

yes did you read it?

One can hardly refer to drugs mafia as 'businesses'; government attempts the greatest control it can, forcing the price as high as possible; and there is nothing to stop monopolies forming in the illegal supply chain (try selling on your street corner, you'll find out)

it may behave with similarities to a 'free' market but you just can't say it is, and it's certainly nothing to do with capitalism, which if anything implies a libertarian ethos. Were cocaine legalised, it would be half the price, twice the quality, and there wouldn't be 'barons' running geographical supply territory. You might even get fairtrade!

The govt makes drugs illegal, thereby stepping out of the actual regulation of the business. That means that suppliers can create monopolies or attempt to, fix prices if they want to, take no measures to ensure quality control, etc.

Those are all the types of things that are addressed when the govt regulates a business, and that are given free rein, in an uncontrolled capitalist market.

 

[Jazzz]

The govt makes drugs illegal, thereby stepping out of the actual regulation of the business. That means that suppliers can create monopolies or attempt to, fix prices if they want to, take no measures to ensure quality control, etc.

Those are all the types of things that are addressed when the govt regulates a business, and that are given free rein, in an uncontrolled capitalist market.

Well no, the free market is defined as one in which monopolies are prevented from forming. so in the one aspect where government regulation is required to create a free market, it doesn't happen. In every other aspect, the government is interfering.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Well no, the free market is defined as one in which monopolies are prevented from forming. so in the one aspect where government regulation is required to create a free market, it doesn't happen. In every other aspect, the government is interfering.

A free market is a market where the price of an item is arranged by the mutual consent of sellers and buyers, with the supply and demand of that item not being regulated by a government (see supply and demand); the opposite is a controlled market, where supply and price are set by a government.[1] However, while a free market necessitates that government does not regulate supply, demand, and prices, it also requires the traders themselves do not coerce or defraud each other, so that all trades are morally voluntary.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market

 

[Julie]

The Americas Foundation: Principles

The Americas Foundation promotes ... a free society ... opportunity for personal achievement ...

We believe that free ... people can create better lives for their families and their fellow citizens. ... The ideas of freedom and progress go hand-in-hand. ...

http://www.theamericasfoundation.org/sections/principles.htm

Hmm.... I wonder what "side" of the political fence this feedom-loving organisation sit?

 

[Blagsta]

yes did you read it?

One can hardly refer to drugs mafia as 'businesses'; government attempts the greatest control it can, forcing the price as high as possible; and there is nothing to stop monopolies forming in the illegal supply chain (try selling on your street corner, you'll find out)

it may behave with similarities to a 'free' market but you just can't say it is, and it's certainly nothing to do with capitalism, which if anything implies a libertarian ethos. Were cocaine legalised, it would be half the price, twice the quality, and there wouldn't be 'barons' running geographical supply territory.

You could even get fairtrade, organic coke!

Capitalism is libertarian? Drugs isn't a business? Yes Jazzz, and lizards really do run the world.

 

[Blagsta]

Well no, the free market is defined as one in which monopolies are prevented from forming.

Errrr...no. A controlled economy is one where monopolies are prevented.

 

[Jazzz]

Voluntary Exchange

The key idea of a free market is voluntary exchange. If an exchange takes place under coercion or fraud, then that exchange is not considered a free market exchange. For example, if someone threatens someone with a gun to purchase what he is selling then is a not a free market. Or, if the government legally prevents a merchant from selling his goods at any prices he wishes and that buyers agree upon, that is not a free market. Thus, the operation of supply and demand is not sufficient for a free market if decisions on supply and demand are made under the threat of coercion. If an individual is lied to in order to pursuade him to purchase something, such as when a product or service is misrepresented, this is not considered morally voluntary either. Thus, a free market is one without "force or fraud."

http://www.answers.com/topic/free-market

By definition, this is not a 'free' market; it's not capitalism; it's not libertarianism. Rather, it's the actions of a controlling state. The attitude on this thread seems to be that it is capitalism simply because drugs are available, there are high profits being made, and the control exerted by the government does not appear to have the desired effect. This is careless.

Yes, there are similarities between free markets and black ones in terms of structure but this is not the point.

Black markets can only exist where free ones do not.

 

[Jazzz]

Errrr...no. A controlled economy is one where monopolies are prevented.

Nope. Have another think.

 

[Blagsta]

Jazzz, you believe that lizards control the world. You're nuts. Nothing you say has any credibility. You also happen to be wrong.

 

[Jazzz]

Jazzz, you believe that lizards control the world. You're nuts. Nothing you say has any credibility. You also happen to be wrong.

oh look, it's the personal attack again, with lizard topping

oh well, I'm off to advertise my cocaine business. It's a free market, apparently. Do you think editor will let me place some adverts on urban75? I could do discounts for posters.

 

[yokerist]

the thing is tho dudes coke is fucked up inherentlly wrong and anti human!!!

thats not to say Id say no when its offered:

but the idea of a fair trade/workers coop coke a la zapatista coffee is a bleeding pipe dream

ask yourself this can you name one person in your life that you have met that cocaine has made a better nicer person??????

the answer is a resounding and deafening NO!

(now chop em out)