Clown Army bemuse tourists; extent capitalism damaged still unclear

[audiotech]

Same here. Looking back on it, half of my life so far seems to consist of the actions of an idiot.

But there you go.

Don't knock yourself LLETSA, cos there's many out there who will.

 

[LLETSA]

Aesthetically, I'd much rather have a variety of different places under different ownership, that's got fuck all to do with stopping capitalism though.

So would I. One thing that ensures that towns and cities in Spain, Greece and much of eastern Europe and so on still have their own unique characters is that their shops, cafes and bars are not dominated by the international chains.

 

[LLETSA]

Don't knock yourself LLETSA, cos there's many out there who will.

I should care....

 

[Top Dog]

As you should be aware, comrade, it's a class issue. Are Starbucks directly threatening the ability of the working man to get hold of a slice and a sugary brew on his dinner break? Clearly not. Let the bourgeoise sentimentalise their frappucinos.

Jesus H, this place is getting more and more like the Young Conservatives forum... i take it some of you lot are about advancing class politics of some kind or other, rather than playing at being piss poor Peter Hitchens wannabes?

Maybe you should post such genius in this forum. Or judging by some of the posts there perhaps you are already




... oh wait a minute, maybe im not getting it... you'r being ironic right?

 

[past caring]

Not entirely, no.

I fail to see quite what it is you based the "young conservative" jibe on. Nobody's defended capitalism or multinationals here - some of us have questioned why Starbucks are any worse than other companies......

 

[neilh]

i think some folks problems wi them are also to do with their opposition to the zapatistas in mexico, but you'd be better googlin for that as i don't know that much about it. that and starbucks being one of the most anti-union big employers in america.

 

[hibee]

Jesus H, this place is getting more and more like the Young Conservatives forum... i take it some of you lot are about advancing class politics of some kind or other, rather than playing at being piss poor Peter Hitchens wannabes?

Maybe you should post such genius in this forum. Or judging by some of the posts there perhaps you are already




... oh wait a minute, maybe im not getting it... you'r being ironic right?

Some people on these boards strike me as badly in need of a good sit down.

 

[Top Dog]

I fail to see quite what it is you based the "young conservative" jibe on. Nobody's defended capitalism or multinationals here - some of us have questioned why Starbucks are any worse than other companies......

Well...

I love my coffee, me and all I've noticed is an increase in the number of places where it's now possible to get a decent cup of coffee. I can't attest to anything other than the double esspresso, of course, but Starbucks' is right up there with Cafe Nero's.

does those sound more like the words of someone that opposes capitalism or of a teenage tory trying to wind up their parents...?

Before you go off on one im not suggesting that Starbucks is worse than any other company. There is no 'ethical' capitalism or 'fair trade' solutions. That said, the retail sector is an area where pay, terms & conditions are pretty fucking shit, if you compare it with some other sectors. And in the states thats compounded by companies like starbucks unofficially encouraging union busting activities. So they're fair game if you ask me for that reason alone. So you dont want people to target particular companies or something? Ok then, perhaps you can outline how you will challenge the totality?

So you dislike a certain kind of activist/culture/politics that opposes starbucks... so what? does it make the prevalence of cheap shit starbucks jobs something that shouldnt be opposed because you'd rather wind up a few hippies instead?

 

[Top Dog]

Some people on these boards strike me as badly in need of a good sit down.

no. I just think in some people's attempts to be prolier than thou they end up sounding more like Paul Dacre than the Andy Capp's they wanna be

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

It is reasonable to ask the question: What is the point of a protest, no matter how funny, if none of the public get the point?

 

[hibee]

no. I just think in some people's attempts to be prolier than thou they end up sounding more like Paul Dacre than the Andy Capp's they wanna be

I thought, belatedly, you "got" that post.

Taffboy hits the nail on the head, though - as I said at the start of the thread, most people in the cafe didn't realise they were witnessing a political protest, let alone one against Starbucks.

 

[catch]

If those kind of places are driven out of business, I think it's much more to do with the owners (who are often getting on a bit, anyway) deciding to sell the premises to a chain, rather than being unable to compete with them....

Piccadilly Cafés rent is going up by (not gone up to) £70000/year, they sell cups of tea for 50p.

I'd also question how many independent cafés in Soho are independent, and how many actually belong to parent companies which maintain independent branding for their subsidiaries. Aesthetically there's not much difference in the ownership, but it depends on the relative success of franchising vs. boutique models as to what you end up with. What you don't get is genuinely independent cafés (not that I'm supporting them, doesn't mean the people working in them are any less fucked over, although with some big chains it probably does).

A mate recently found out that five or six of the differently branded chain pubs on Upper Street are owned by the same parent company. Reminds me of that Stallone film where all the restaurants are Taco Bell.

 

[Top Dog]

Taffboy hits the nail on the head, though - as I said at the start of the thread, most people in the cafe didn't realise they were witnessing a political protest, let alone one against Starbucks.

which is a fair enough point and one im not disputing.

Im not defending the nature of the protest though, im having a go at people's reactions to it... the 'protest' may well have missed the point (or not even had a point!) but bluestreak also hit the nail on the head about your response...

so basically hibee, what you're saying is that because you don't like/approve/understand the motivation of a group of activists you deliberately go out of your way to do something contrary to your own general political viewpoint?

which others appeared to endorse. Im having a pop at sloppy thinking, thats all mate

 

[hibee]

which is a fair enough point and one im not disputing.

Im not defending the nature of the protest though, im having a go at people's reactions to it... the 'protest' may well have missed the point (or not even had a point!) but bluestreak also hit the nail on the head about your response...
which others appeared to endorse. Im having a pop at sloppy thinking, thats all mate

And I'm having a pop at you and bluestreak for not having a sense of humour.

 

[Top Dog]

And I'm having a pop at you and bluestreak for not having a sense of humour.

fair enough...

but this thread follows on the heals of several other recent threads that have thrown issues around activists/activism/how people relate to each other... did you miss them... coz this is touching on some of the same things?

And anyway, pal if you want humour how about this...

Scottish Premier League
P Team P Pts
1 Hearts 6 18
2 Celtic 6 13
3 Kilmarnock 6 13
4 Hibernian 6 13
5 Rangers 6 10
6 Inverness CT 6 8
7 Aberdeen 6 7
8 Motherwell 6 7

 

[hibee]

fair enough...

but this thread follows on the heals of several other recent threads that have thrown issues around activists/activism/how people relate to each other... did you miss them... coz this is touching on some of the same things?

And anyway, pal if you want humour how about this...

Scottish Premier League
P Team P Pts
1 Hearts 6 18
2 Celtic 6 13
3 Kilmarnock 6 13
4 Hibernian 6 13
5 Rangers 6 10
6 Inverness CT 6 8
7 Aberdeen 6 7
8 Motherwell 6 7

Listen, it won't stay like that for long. The real rib tickler was Vladimir "pound store Abramovich" Romanov announcing they were going to win the title.

 

[Top Dog]

Listen, it won't stay like that for long. The real rib tickler was Vladimir "pound store Abramovich" Romanov announcing they were going to win the title.

well we all know what happened to the romanovs

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

I'm a bit fucking lost when it comes to the objection to Starbucks, I have to confess.

A lot of the objections I've heard seem to centre around their driving small, independent and local coffee shops out of business. It's not something I've noticed to be honest. I love my coffee, me and all I've noticed is an increase in the number of places where it's now possible to get a decent cup of coffee. I can't attest to anything other than the double esspresso, of course, but Starbucks' is right up there with Cafe Nero's.

If you havent notcied the effects of Starbucks viscious "clustering" techniques, then I think your local town might be quite unusual.

Sure, Starbucks are just an icon like Macdonalds - but it's not without cause.

 

[hibee]

For all I'm aware of what people object to about Starbucks, I'm never sure why this is so heinous that they are singled out by the people in bandanas. Why do anti globalisation activists go on about Starbucks and not, say, Morrisons or Toys R Us or Anne Summers?

Like LLETSA and Past Caring there weren't any independent coffee shops in the town where I grew up. Even if there were, I don't see why driving them out of business should turn Starbucks into enemy number one. Global capitalism is capable of much, much worse after all.

 

[chilango]

Starbucks invented some new system for ensuring that their employees only got paid for actual work, and were never paid for quiet times (i forget the details I think it was in No Logo.)

Besides their coffee tastes shit.

 

[888]

I'm a bit fucking lost when it comes to the objection to Starbucks, I have to confess.

A lot of the objections I've heard seem to centre around their driving small, independent and local coffee shops out of business. It's not something I've noticed to be honest. I love my coffee, me and all I've noticed is an increase in the number of places where it's now possible to get a decent cup of coffee. I can't attest to anything other than the double esspresso, of course, but Starbucks' is right up there with Cafe Nero's.

They tend to treat their staff considerably worse than other coffee shops. In the US they certainly drive other coffee shops out of business, but I don't partcularly care about the plight of the small businessman. IWW here is organising Starbucks workers, though I have argued it should target another chain which isn't so rabidly anti-union first.

 

[In Bloom]

Starbucks sell overpriced, crap coffee and treat their employees like shit (more so than a lot of other high street chains, I've heard the ergonomics of their stores is horrific when you're behind the counter), but on the other hand, the Clown Army are a bunch of embarrassing, irrelevant prats.

Its hard to know where I stand on this one