Clone Town Brixton

[mccliche]

Good grief, draw more people to the high street? I'd quite like to be able to walk from one end to the other without walking in the road, you know

lol...too true

imo brixton doesn't nedd more investment in the way of chain-stores etc. it has a nice blend of chains and local places

no need for a starbucks, really can't imagine it.
would hate to see loads of people mincing around holding their starbucks foam coffee containers..... tho it would be a good way to spot a twat from a distance

 

[co-op]

But that's beside the point. The point has been made in the past (not sure about proven - hence the research) that a critical mass of chain stores MIGHT draw more people, local and non-local, to the high street. This MIGHT have a knock-on impact on investment in street scene and lighting, a reduction in anti-social behaviour (on that particular street, anyway), an increase in business investment and council funding opportunities.

I.

The most anti-social aspect of Brixton as a shopping centre is the fecking great motorway running through the middle of it. The numbers of people using the pavements are easily 10 times the numbers in cars yet they are given maybe 25% of the available space.

It cuts the town in two, the pavements are practically impassable due to the crush of shoppers, child buggies, queues for buses etc. Even if you are nimble enough to skip through a few lanes of traffic there is a great fence down the middle - I'm over 6 foot tall and I can just about vault it ok - anyone else, unless you're a gymnast, forget it.

And of course car drivers think they have the right to drive as fast and aggressively as they like without regard to anyone else - just like they do everywhere else in London.

If they built Starbucks in the middle of the road and gave us a bit of space and a bit of peace I'd bloody welcome them. Otherwise - what on earth do they add? Nothing; more likely we'll lose something much nicer in order to fit them in.

 

[antjamesb]

fair point. not sure how that will change when they alter the layout of the centre but I think part of the plan was to lesson the congestion on the paths

 

[Crispy]

fair point. not sure how that will change when they alter the layout of the centre but I think part of the plan was to lesson the congestion on the paths

Apols for the big image, but these are the plans as I know them. So yes, a bit of extra pavement is planned.

Bottlenecks removed: Outside Iceland, West pavement from McDonalds to the main crossing.
Bottlenecks added: Outside Boots (iceland lorry layby), under the railway bridge - no more pavement between 1st pier and the road - new layby.

 

[Skim]

Why would you want to go to Starbucks when there's so many good, cheaper, independent cafes?

Sadly, Starbucks (and the other chain cafes) can offer more space and facilities that aren't always available in the independent cafes. The independent cafes in Brixton can be cramped and don't have toilets – like Rosie's in the market and that new place on Rushcroft Road. These things become important when you're travelling around with a pushchair, so that's why there are hoardes of mothers in Caffe Nero every day spending all the child benefit on biscotti

 

[newbie]

There does appear to be far more violence and gang culture than in 1973!

you read that in the papers, sure, but in reality... I have a vivid memory of a gang of feral kids around Sandmere Rd in about 73/74 who used to set fire to cars in order to brick the fire brigade when they turned up. Obviously I also have tinted specs, but I'd say there was more, not less, low level asb type crime then than now, at least in terms of how it affects us civilians. I think you'd need to live in the place to appreciate that what 'appears' to be the case from the newspapers, or even from discussions here, isn't really reflective.

What quality of life are you talking about.

what I wrote... inside toilets, hot water, central heating. What is now thought of as very basic quality of life but was then the stuff of dreams for many localpeople who lived in miserable slums.

In the 70s there were queues outside the Town Hall of people wanting to get out of Brixton. Now the issue is those that can't afford to get (or stay) in.

 

[editor]

Sadly, Starbucks (and the other chain cafes) can offer more space and facilities that aren't always available in the independent cafes. The independent cafes in Brixton can be cramped and don't have toilets

The Ritzy and the Lounge cafes have loos and are both child friendly!

 

[Crispy]

You can't get a buggy into the Ritzy cafe

 

[editor]

Bottlenecks removed: Outside Iceland, West pavement from McDonalds to the main crossing.
Bottlenecks added: Outside Boots (iceland lorry layby), under the railway bridge - no more pavement between 1st pier and the road - new layby.

They give with one hand and take with the other.

 

[editor]

You can't get a buggy into the Ritzy cafe

Yes you can. There's a lift, or you can leave it downstairs.

 

[Crispy]

Oh, I had no idea there was a lift

 

[Crispy]

They give with one hand and take with the other.

I think in this case, they give more than they take. The iceland lorry has to park somewhere, after all.

 

[editor]

I think in this case, they give more than they take. The iceland lorry has to park somewhere, after all.

Why does Iceland need an all day parking bay? Why can't it unload at 5am or summat?

It's going to horrible if they take that chunk of pavement away under the bridge too.

 

[hendo]

They could paint ganja leaves on their Minis

LOL X 1000.

 

[Crispy]

Yeah, the bridge bit rankles.

Good point about delivery timings. I always see them doing unloading after the store shuts - around 9ish.

Also notice the the Northbound side of the road is reduced to one lane plus bus lane. That's going to make buses slower to pull out.

 

[untethered]

But that's beside the point. The point has been made in the past (not sure about proven - hence the research) that a critical mass of chain stores MIGHT draw more people, local and non-local, to the high street. This MIGHT have a knock-on impact on investment in street scene and lighting, a reduction in anti-social behaviour (on that particular street, anyway), an increase in business investment and council funding opportunities.

This is somewhat putting the cart before the horse.

If you want the council to invest in the street scene, the best thing to do is approach them directly and set up community groups to make it happen. I'm not local to Brixton but I'd be surprised if various groups didn't already exist (Civic Trust affiliates, residents' and tenants' associations, chambers of commerce, environmental groups, etc.)

The real question is, what do you want your local area to be? Some people like the "security" of big brands and chain stores (but they're spoilt for choice in most places) and other people like the uniqueness and diversity of smaller, one-off businesses. Chain stores appropriate most of their takings and send them outside the neighbourhood, not least because they usually have a preference for centralised sourcing, whereas smaller local businesses will generally also use local suppliers.

There is more to quality of life than the raw turnover of a neighbourhood's high street shops. From what I know of Brixton, most people like it just as it is. Those that don't won't move there or will move out when they get the chance.

 

[hendo]

Why would you want to go to Starbucks when there's so many good, cheaper, independent cafes?

I agree. I find the idea that the presence of a Starbucks can somehow recommend a place to possible incomers baffling. The coffee's rubbish and the brand's clapped out.

 

[clandestino]

You can't get a buggy into the Ritzy cafe

Yes, you can. You take it up in the lift. I've done that several times.

 

[clandestino]

ianw:
1. There are already loads of chains in Brixton - WH Smith, M&S, Carphone Warehouse, and Morleys has all the same departments as any other dept store

I know. That's why I said another chain.

2. There are enough local brand happy consumers in Brixton to make a local Starbucks a success, and not just the 'yuppie' contingent. I've been in the Nero's a few times, and it seems to have a pretty wide collection of people you'd normally see in a tea/coffee house on the high street - pensioners, young mums, a few students etc...

Shame. The appeal of these places totally passes me by. I'd rather have a cuppa in one of the many fine cafes in Brixton.

 

[clandestino]

Unfortunately i think a lot of people would disagree that Brixton is nice, but I'm working on them and this forum is an excellent source of evidence as to why it is.

Who cares what they think? If that's their attitude, I'd rather they stayed away.

 

[colacubes]

Why does Iceland need an all day parking bay? Why can't it unload at 5am or summat?

Noise for local residents I'd imagine. Those of us who live right in the Town Centre put up with loads of noise (our choice for living here) but I think 5am deliveries would be pushing it a bit far

Don't agree with them having a permanent bay but I'm not sure there's another solution The shops at the other end of that stretch all unload at the back of Electric Lane but Iceland doesn't have a loading bay there because it's split from the rest by the tube station.

 

[Crispy]

Plus, iceland has a huge lorry, I don't think you'd get it up atlantic road, let alone electric lane.

 

[colacubes]

Plus, iceland has a huge lorry, I don't think you'd get it up atlantic road, let alone electric lane.

The Sainsburys and Argos lorries that unload are as big, but it just wouldn't be practical as their loading bay is in the Avenue so they'd just have to wheel all the crates round through the market which would be rather problematic!!

 

[trabuquera]

Does Brixton need a Starbucks? Definitely NO... wot with the new caffs in Morley's and Rushcroft Road, to add to the profusion of older more "indie" places (Ritzy, Rosie's, the Italian one that sells pizza too ) there is nothing it can add to the area - there are already plenty of places to eat cake / drink coffee / watch the world go by.

Does Brixton need more chainstores? I'd say NO again ... it is certainly nice having the 'bare basics' of chain shops (M&S, Sainsbury's, WH Smith, Woolworths, Argos (even) in the area .... excepting Comet of course 'cause they're the devil's spawn - but I can't honestly think of any more big-brand chain stores we really need.

What the area DOES still need - and I don't care if they turn out to be chains or not...
Decent bookshop
Decent video-rental firm after the demise of the DVD/internet place over the
road from the cop shop.

I don't think there's any argument for Brixton "needing" more chain stores to bring in more shoppers (because they won't), and even if they did, local planning means there will be almost nowhere for them to mill about in - at least without causing yet more punchups at the bus queues.

 

[Ol Nick]

The real question is, what do you want your local area to be? Some people like the "security" of big brands and chain stores (but they're spoilt for choice in most places) and other people like the uniqueness and diversity of smaller, one-off businesses. Chain stores appropriate most of their takings and send them outside the neighbourhood, not least because they usually have a preference for centralised sourcing, whereas smaller local businesses will generally also use local suppliers.

But look at the oft-quoted example of Streatham. Ten years after losing the local John Lewis franchise it turned into a traffic-filled, knife-wiedling asbo-suburb. Bringing a John Lewis to Brixton may be not be enough to channel the local entrepreneurs into running an in-store concession, but it may have some affect. The anti-Pratts, whatever that would be.

Having said that, the great thing about Brixton is that there is always spare retail space on Brixton Road, Atlantic/Railton, in the market so every crappy little independent business has the chance to blossom into the next Lounge, Eco or Joy. Though sadly not the giant land snail shop in the covered market. I'm pretty sure tourists would have to come to see them

 

[Winot]

In terms of trickle-down, a slightly more realistic argument might be that chain shops attract other chain shops, which tend to pay higher rents and rates which might help top up the council coffers to spend on the area? (again, dont shoot me - I know there are reasons this might not happen too)

I'm pretty sure that business rates are nabbed by central government and local government don't get a look in.

 

[Winot]

Does Brixton need a Starbucks? Definitely NO... wot with the new caffs in Morley's and Rushcroft Road, to add to the profusion of older more "indie" places (Ritzy, Rosie's, the Italian one that sells pizza too ) there is nothing it can add to the area - there are already plenty of places to eat cake / drink coffee / watch the world go by.

I agree with this but I live in Brixton anyway. The OP's question is an interesting one which throws up all sorts of issues:

- what is needed to improve Brixton?
- to the extent that funding is needed how can that be attracted?
- to what extent can Brixton help "itself" and how much does it need outside custom?
- to what extent should it change the way it is to attract outsiders?
- can this change be balanced so as not to piss off the present residents?

There's probably quite a lot of (fried) chicken and egg in this debate but I'd guess that the notional Starbucks is really just a proxy for the area changing in a way that brings in those presently uncomfortable about coming here.

To put it in a nutshell, is it possible to have regeneration without gentrification? With so much left to commercial concerns I suspect that unfortunately the answer is no.

 

[gaijingirl]

You can't get a buggy into the Ritzy cafe

You've obviously never been in there whilst they're doing the "Watch with mother" shows... I thought I'd walked into a buggy warehouse!!

 

[antjamesb]

Thanks Winot, that's a much more eloquent way of explaining what I was trying to get at.

And yep, business rates are nationalised though there are some smaller-scale ways in which councils can benefit from their growth (e.g. LABGI) and from an influx of large businesses more generally.

Thanks for all your input so far - much appreciated.

 

[Brainaddict]

The premises of this thread baffle me on so many levels. For starters it seems to be based on the Chinese model of state capitalism where the town is a money-generating entity in competition with other towns. But I realise that the ethic (and bogus economics) of such competition has fully entered the public sector in this country too now so shouldn't be too surprised.

Another premise I find odd: the idea that the high street needs more people. Very strange thought if you've ever tried to walk down it on a Saturday. Surely what is meant here is it needs the *right kind* of people. That's the subtext I read anyway. Meanwhile what happens to the people already here?

And another odd idea: that chain shops can be a catalyst for something positive, rather than, say, the destruction of locally-run businesses. Yeah, that'd be great for Brixton. The people who own shops now could go and work in the new chain shops for £6.50 an hour. Woo!

Odd idea number four: that the opinions of people who live outside Brixton (and find it scary) should matter over the opinions of people who actually live here (who mostly like it).

Odd idea number five: an implicit assumption that Brixton exists in economic isolation from the rest of London, which if my memory of the map is correct, is actually quite close by. It's ridiculous to talk about the economic revitalisation of Brixton without considering its place in London. Maybe its a bit poor because there are poor people in London. Strange thought. Are these people poor because of lack of 'inward investment' into Brixton? We live in the middle of one of the biggest job-generation centres of the world, mostly easily accessible by public transport. I don't think people are poor because there aren't any jobs around. It's a bit more structural than that. So if your 'inward investment' isn't going to help the poor people, is it just going to drive them out?

And oddest of all: is posting on random bulletin boards what counts as research in local government now? In which case we're fucked