Climate change protesters wasting their time?

[Random]

Unsustainable food production isn't going to go away without massive social change at every level and that's not going to happen because somebody superglues themselves bollocko to lastminute.com's office door.

No, but putting forward anti-capitalist campaigns against climate change isn't something to do insttead of the social change, it's part of it. Otherwise we just let Al Gore and his corporate chums walk off with the climate issue.

 

[HAL9000]

Fine, let them do that. Just reduce trips to what is absolutley necessary by making flying less accessible.

Flying is just one option when managing business.

• You could do more testing remotely (probably)
• You could take fewer trips and stay over there longer (probably)
• Possibly organise your business to take advantage of more local contacts
• Make more use of local labour. Training customers to do the stuff etc
• The systems you create need to reflect the TRUE cost of production, so therefore include the envoinmental cost of the flight which will be paid for by the people who buy it

To cover another topic. Extra taxes on fuel, yes good but fuel costs are not a major proportion of the cost of your ticket and will only marginally increase cost of ticket.

I understand a major limiting factor in flights in this country is availability of slots. It seems crazy to be building more runways at this time of chrisis.

This was the point I was trying to make, companies could reduce the number flights but I doubt they're doing that. Companies main priority for travel appears to be

Either finding the cheapest flight possible
or
Getting the employee to handover the air miles they generated during company flying (nice)

 

[gosub]

Fine, let them do that. Just reduce trips to what is absolutley necessary by making flying less accessible.

Flying is just one option when managing business.

• You could do more testing remotely (probably)
• You could take fewer trips and stay over there longer (probably)
• Possibly organise your business to take advantage of more local contacts
• Make more use of local labour. Training customers to do the stuff etc
• The systems you create need to reflect the TRUE cost of production, so therefore include the envoinmental cost of the flight which will be paid for by the people who buy it

To cover another topic. Extra taxes on fuel, yes good but fuel costs are not a major proportion of the cost of your ticket and will only marginally increase cost of ticket.

I understand a major limiting factor in flights in this country is availability of slots. It seems crazy to be building more runways at this time of chrisis.

Fuel is the largest of our DOC's.

Slots are a headache, though strangely the legality of the slot system has never been established, was challenged once and the judge really wanted to hear the case, BAA backed down and settled out of court. Number of operational airports has actually gone down over the years.

Your true cost of production to include transport is fine provided you also factor in Adam Smith, running one large furnace to smelt steel for pins, seems rationally more efficient than two smaller ones

 

[fredfelt]

Fuel is the largest of our DOC's.

Slots are a headache, though strangely the legality of the slot system has never been established, was challenged once and the judge really wanted to hear the case, BAA backed down and settled out of court. Number of operational airports has actually gone down over the years.

Your true cost of production to include transport is fine provided you also factor in Adam Smith, running one large furnace to smelt steel for pins, seems rationally more efficient than two smaller ones

A quick google brought this back, from Caroline Lucas website

According to IATAâs own figures, fuel currently makes up less than 15% of the cost of flying, so at the moment thereâs little incentive for airlines to invest in more efficient aircraft.​

OK. It might be the largest direct overhead to the industry; but in terms of total costs its not that much. You can easliy to the maths to figure out how much a ticket would rise if the cost of fuel to the avaition industry doubled.

And as for the pins. Pricing flying with a bit of Adam Smith economics, moral self interest on a globalised level with correct prices would undoubelty put the cost of flying through the roof.

 

[gosub]

You can google Caroline Lucus as much as you want, we've had the current AOC for over 15 years and had ones before that, we also buy new aircraft every five years, as there is every incentive to buy new, one reason lead times are so long on new deliveries.

I don't know what tangent you are taking with the Adam Smith, what I was thinking that economies of scale doesn't just work with labour could be extended to energy or carbon throughout a chain of production. With two possible claviates (1) economies of scale more likely to have higher carbon monoxide levels which has differing impact on environment. and (2) concrete has wierd chemistry that I don't fully comprehend.

 

[fredfelt]

You can google Caroline Lucus as much as you want, we've had the current AOC for over 15 years and had ones before that, we also buy new aircraft every five years, as there is every incentive to buy new, one reason lead times are so long on new deliveries.

I don't know what tangent you are taking with the Adam Smith, what I was thinking that economies of scale doesn't just work with labour could be extended to energy or carbon throughout a chain of production. With two possible claviates (1) economies of scale more likely to have higher carbon monoxide levels which has differing impact on environment. and (2) concrete has wierd chemistry that I don't fully comprehend.

My point was not about Caroline Lucas, or new aircraft but that a massive increase in fuel tax will lead to a much smaller increase in the price of a ticket as the fuel is about 15% of the price of a ticket.

And I must admit I've lost your orginal point about Adam Smith was, but I would have thought that any increase in the cost of fuel would lead to a reduction in its use. If economies of scale have been found in artifically low fuel costs this will lead to more fuel being used in relation to other resources.

I've got no idea about the chemistry of concrete either, or what that relates to.

 

[gosub]

My point is, those numbers are well off but we not quite in the same sector (we don't rent out bits of an aeroplane) and we are not affiliated with IATA, but i accept the onus should be on me if IATA are coming out with this bollocks. This will be easier in a couple weeks when my bro starts a new job where he spends half the day on the phone tomost of our equatally non IATA competitors. Would concede artificially raising fuel prices would impact on demand but that really should be done globally, if for no other reason than short sectoring through Iceland whilst less fuel efficient would become more cost effective if EU unilaterally decided to spark a transatlantic trade war. What's required most, is changing attitudes in the US which has the largest plane register by some distance anyway.

To that end I find Prof. Mervyn Rees' efforts with US evangelists far more commendable than people chaining themselves to one entrance of my work. Though if the Prof. is indirectly responsible for the "its a moral crusade thang" that's a downer. [while we are talking about the Prof. -don't change the light bulb but relates to climate change and that other area of shared concern- anyone looking at polar reversal and the impact on large loose bits of rock with high ferrous content?WR. HSF]

The economies of scale bit stems from what I perceive as an underlying desire in the environmental to have everything produced locally but the energy involved in building and running lots of small factories where goods don't have to be shipped very far could be just as bad as one big factory and lots of shipping. I'm not going to labour the point, as big is beautiful is not to my personal taste, but you can't single out transport on its own, the need is to balance the whole production, supply and disposal chain.

 

[Wilf]

No, but putting forward anti-capitalist campaigns against climate change isn't something to do insttead of the social change, it's part of it. Otherwise we just let Al Gore and his corporate chums walk off with the climate issue.

yep, that's precisely the point. My sole reason for going to the camp was to nag away at those who thought climate change could be achieved through liberalism or some ill defined shift within capitalism - and of course to get stuckin to a few corporate targets. Won't pretend that the mixed bag of people involved in climate activism are firmly anticapitalist, but the climate camp suggested a significant number are.